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Clavain

Should The UK Leave The European Union ?

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Many people can give an answer now but those that can't and people outside of the UK your opinions are important.

 

I want to hear all the arguments because at the moment both sides have very good arguments.

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Clavain, I would have to look at the pros and cons before even trying to offer an opinion - not sure how to go about that?  Can you let me at least know your views on it?

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Clavain, I would have to look at the pros and cons before even trying to offer an opinion - not sure how to go about that? Can you let me at least know your views on it?

There are other websites I'm sure but you could start here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum Edited by lunababymoonchild

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I honestly don't know what I think. One thing is for sure though, I hate the scaremongering going on by both camps. Migration will get worse! Terrorism will be worse! And that's both In and Outs.

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As someone with a British passport who is settled in France I'm obviously for staying in, I expect we'll have to take out French nationality if Britain leaves the EU but that's not going to be a problem, we've been here for 23 years and we've been talking about doing it anyway so we can vote in the national elections.  But discounting that, I reckon I'd still come down on the stay-in side.  It seems that if Britain did leave there'd be an unholy mess trying to unravel all the ties, it's going to be small businesses that will suffer, not the banks and Nigel Farrages of this world who think that a little 'belt tightening' is fine providing it's not their own it could have a really serious effect ont he financial markets in London if the euro is no longer traded there (which apparently is very possible if the UK is no longer part of the EU) and frankly it's up to the UK government to sort out migrants, the overloading of the health service etc, without continually whining that it's the EU's fault and as for terrorists, the 7/7 bombers were home bred, and the UK has passport controls, leaving the EU isn't going to make them any more effective.

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I don't think we should leave. That's a gut instinct. I don't like any of the arguments I hear for leaving or the people who make them. Scotland is, I reckon, strongly pro-EU. I didn't vote for independence, but I voted for a UK which was in the EU. If Britain voted to leave, I'd vote yes in any subsequent referendum for independence.

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Haven't gone into this in any depth, obviously, but it would seem to me that whatever is best for the UK economically would be the way to go and it sounds like staying in the European Union would be more advantageous to the UK than dropping out of it.  The one thing that might be a bit of a drawback is the freedom of travel between all of the countries and I guess that's what some people may be concerned about - who is coming into the country with malicious intent.  That's probably where the concern re terrorists might spring from.

 

This is probably a really simplistic view and feel free to correct my wrong thinkiing.   :hmm:

Edited by momac

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Momac, the Schengen agreement doesn't apply to the UK - within mainland Europe, you can travel without a passport, in fact there are no borders, but you need a passport to enter the UK, so I don't think that we would notice any change if we left the EU. There's no push for us to join the Schengen zone if we stay in.

 

The migration crisis has put Schengen at risk anyway: the European countries all have different attitudes and they're beginning to talk about controlling their borders. But it's really not an issue for us as far as I can see.

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Leaving would be a mistake economically but it's the longer term concern that a lot of people are thinking about. The United States of Europe is where the union must inevitably lead and denying that is disingenuous. You either buy into that future or you don't. Cameron got the concession of less political intergration but so what, that's only in the short term.

 

Then there's the utter lack of democracy. Even the yes vote acknowledge this but say we can reform the system once we're in. That's a bit like electing Hitler and saying now he's in, let's make him less of a Nazi. A very strange tactic which ignores a very disturbing element of the union.

 

Then we have the problem of understanding the question. You're asking the public to vote on a question they don't fully understand. You might as well ask... should quantum mechanics be involvd with elephants? Most people will vote no because they haven't got a clue what the question even means.

 

I'm inclined to vote to stay in... but I'm still extremely unhappy about so much of it.

Edited by hux

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It just seems so complicated to me with both sides giving very good arguments and like Hazel says both sides sadly going for fear and scaremongering.

Most of my friends are leave although my gut instinct is to stay like Minx and Huw. It's above party politics with the Tories split, Labour having a sizeable minority to leave, the SNP to stay, right wing press to leave and most businesses to stay.

It's going to be an interesting four months of hopefully factual and honest debate and then hopefully I can make a decision. 

At the moment I see it like this (will be interesting to read my words in 4 months time)

Stay in Europe

Pros - Greater say on the world stage. More power to stand up to global corporations, global warming and terrorism. The only country that wants us to leave is Russia (that is a pro). Staying in a very big market and having influence over it.

Cons - No or limited control over borders.Inability to access other markets without EU control and rules. Limited sovereign powers in respect to the unelected bureaucracy and waste of the EU. Shunted aside whilst the rest pursue political and monetary union.

 

Leave Europe

Pros - Greater control over our borders and limit the mass immigration of eastern Europeans (now 2 million plus). More sovereign power to the government over laws and human rights.Ability to look at other markets without EU constraints.

Cons - This is a grey area since I think nobody really knows. Would be a momentous decision which many are calling "a leap into the dark" with many apocalyptic results from massive job losses, global businesses moving from the UK and refugee camps at Dover.

A big con for me is the disintegration of the UK if England votes to leave and Scotland, Ireland and Wales vote to stay.Like Minx says the SNP would have a mandate to leave and the border between Ireland (EU) and Northern Ireland could undermine the trust won between these once troubled parts.

 

To be honest I think English people are sick of the mass immigration over the last 5 years from eastern Europe. It's changed the landscape of most city's towns and villages, caused resentment and put a strain on housing,education, wages and health care. Would be a shame to leave Europe because of that but I just don't think Cameron has convinced enough people he can change it..

Edited by Clavain

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Hux broadly summarizes my view. I'm instinctively in favour of remaining in the EU, and will almost certainly vote to do so. I find the desire to leave stems from a Little Englander mentality more than anything (and I use that phrase assuming what MM says above about opinion in Scotland is probably true).

 

I find that mentality can be quite distasteful - it's mostly "they come over here, taking our jobs, claiming our benefits" etc. I work in an office with many eastern European colleagues who without exception are conscientious and hard working and would resent being described as scroungers.    

 

I don't even have that much of a problem with the concept of ever closer union with our European neighbours. However, I accept there are numerous problems with the way the European bodies are structured and run. Whether we are better off sniping from the outside is quite a different thing, however. 

 

In addition, I can't see how the UK can be better off economically. When Britain controlled 20% of the globe this might have been the case, but not today.

 

I'm also cynical about the upcoming campaign and believe a lot of it will have nothing to do with the issues. The decision to back the Exit campaign by the incumbent Tory Mayor of London Boris Johnson, who thankfully isn't seeking reelection when my fellow Londoners and I go to the polls in May, is surely driven by ambition more than belief. No doubt there is worse to come.  

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Stay in!  We are no longer able to stand alone and should be content to be little British.  Culturally and geographically we are (almost) linked.  Travel and health services are another link.

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I'm also cynical about the upcoming campaign and believe a lot of it will have nothing to do with the issues. The decision to back the Exit campaign by the incumbent Tory Mayor of London Boris Johnson, who thankfully isn't seeking reelection when my fellow Londoners and I go to the polls in May, is surely driven by ambition more than belief. No doubt there is worse to come.  

Boris Johnson almost made my mind up for me. So selfish a move when considering the most multicultural capital in the world.and he's not up for re election.  Obviously after the job and Cameron for me gave a scathing response.

 

 

 

This is worth reading (and not just because I largely agree with what it says)

http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/

Excellent article Viccie ty.

 

 

Stay in!  We are no longer able to stand alone and should be content to be little British.  Culturally and geographically we are (almost) linked.  Travel and health services are another link.

Would love to think so and maybe we are punching above our weight but there are very good arguments to say globalisation makes all countries closer and we could do better not held behind by 24 countries in Europe that are not in our league? Germany France UK Italy.... can see the aims of Europe but the expansion has been so rapid and economically disastrous for some in the Euro zone.Greece have been beggared with debt.

Is Europe politics or economics?. 

Edited by Clavain

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The arguments for leaving seem to centre around immigration from Syria. Does anyone think that the Syrian refugee problem only affects the UK because it is part of the EU. If anything, being part of the EU allows for a more strategic approach to the issue than just having refugees rocking up to a stand-alone state. Plus, if the EU had not so naively supported the rebels in the Arab Spring, it would not be an issue at all. 

 

I look at the EU as an opportunity for free trade, free movement, the ability to work wherever you want, live wherever you want, retire wherever you want. From afar, that looks pretty damned attractive. And my experience living in Scotland was that the trades were transformed by Polish workers - trades turned up on time, delivered a professional service and were polite. 

 

And if the EU is so bad, why are countries queuing up to join?

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Thank you Viccie for the link to that article.  I voted 'in' the last time and I will do so again.  What worries me is that the Brexit people will be more motivated to vote.  And don't talk to me about our press! 

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The no vote will use immigration to get votes but its a red herring. Most of the immigration that people take exception to isn't even connected to the EU anyway. The economy is also a red herring.

 

 

It's worth noting that people aren't just voting for the short term issues.

 

Long term, here's what you're ultimately voting for; a United States of Europe. If you think that's something we should be a part of and you consider that utopian, co-operative union to be a beautiful idea that will bring the continent together... then vote yes.

Edited by hux

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I think my main problem, and I realise it's a little silly, is that I don't trust Cameron at all, I actively dislike him and his ilk , so the fact that he is IN makes me a little uneasy.

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I think my main problem, and I realise it's a little silly, is that I don't trust Cameron at all, I actively dislike him and his ilk , so the fact that he is IN makes me a little uneasy.

I agree i don't like Cameron at all, but then I like Farrage and his ilk even less....

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I've found it interesting that, almost universally, Labour, Green, etc. seem to be in favour of staying while UKIP are for leaving and Conservatives are divided.  So this article interested me.  Originally published just after the general election in May 2015 it purports to be the left-wing argument for leaving the EU.  It's compelling... 

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/john-king-left-wing-case-leaving-eu

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Very compelling tagesmann and after the article that Viccie posted shows how complex and yet important this referendum is.

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