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Grammath

The Ashes

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Oh dear!. Turned on this morning just as we had lost our second wicket. Once again we seem to have thrown away a potential start and now that we are four wickets down we are struggling again. I do wonder if Kevin Pieterson has had his best days. I know that he has always been considered a match turner but he does not seem to coming off much these days. If Bell fails again I think the ashes are really up for this series at least.

 

Oh, the Ashes are heading Down Under, most definitely. My latest thinking is that new Aussie coach Darren Lehmann has simply transformed the side's attitude and is getting the maximum out of limited resources as a result.

 

As regards KP and his dreadful dismissal this morning, like a lot of cricketers he basically plays one way, which in his case is to be attacking. If the more cautious and watchful players (Cook, Bell and, until recently, Trott) are there to support him and are playing well he can get away with it, but at the moment he can't.    

 

There is much talk of now making wholesale changes to the side, but I'd hold off just yet. I think drafting in a lot of inexperienced young players in Melbourne in front of 100,000 baying Aussies is a tough ask for them. Sydney might be a more forgiving place for some experimentation.

 

As I said before, ENgland are a team in transition, and some younger players - Root, Stokes - are making claims to being fixtures in the squad. It is this that makes me think that the Aussies won't hang onto the Ashes for long.  

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Oh, the Ashes are heading Down Under, most definitely. My latest thinking is that new Aussie coach Darren Lehmann has simply transformed the side's attitude and is getting the maximum out of limited resources as a result.

 

As regards KP and his dreadful dismissal this morning, like a lot of cricketers he basically plays one way, which in his case is to be attacking. If the more cautious and watchful players (Cook, Bell and, until recently, Trott) are there to support him and are playing well he can get away with it, but at the moment he can't.    

 

There is much talk of now making wholesale changes to the side, but I'd hold off just yet. I think drafting in a lot of inexperienced young players in Melbourne in front of 100,000 baying Aussies is a tough ask for them. Sydney might be a more forgiving place for some experimentation.

 

As I said before, ENgland are a team in transition, and some younger players - Root, Stokes - are making claims to being fixtures in the squad. It is this that makes me think that the Aussies won't hang onto the Ashes for long.

 

I agree about wholesale changes being a mistake. Pretty impressed with Stokes in this game and I am sure that Root has a future in international cricket. I am a bit concerned about Cook's position as captain. Unless things improve soon I wonder if he will resign the captaincy. I would not like to think what will happen if he does as there is no obvious sucesser.

 

I only hope we can play for a bit of pride now.

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So I take it from that Grammath that you are not confident that we can get a draw in this one!  As we finished the day on 251-5 we are halfway (bar two runs) to winning it!

Agreed, in all honesty, that this series is gone, and has been gone from pretty early on.  The England players' heads just seem to have gone, the Aussies have got into them and I agree completely with your comments on Lehmann.  A tough Aussie coach galvanising the side, you could see that starting to take shape in the summer series, even though he had to overturn the turmoil that had been caused by the 11th hour sacking of Mickey Arthur.

 

The answer is not a complete overhaul overnight, as I have heard suggested by so many callers to radio programmes today, but I do wonder if, until recently when we have started to see younger players start to appear, the England side has perhaps been harder to get out of than get into. 

 

Andy Flower has been quoted as saying they are not afraid of making tough decisions but I don't see too much evidence of that, a tough decision in my book would be something like dropping Pietersen, not just tinkering with the bowlers.  Considering we were supposed to be taking a battery of 6'5" plus fast bowlers who were going to stick it up their noses and bounce them into submission, the pace attack has been strangely ineffective (Broad maybe excluded) and Finn and Rankin haven't got anywhere near the test side.

 

No matter the end result of the series it has not been an unqualified success I think it would be fair to say (I am a master of under-statement sometimes), and I think it will be interesting to see what Cook and Flower's moves will be when they return home.  I hope for Cook's sake that he doesn't take all of this on his shoulders but there have been mutterings previously about Flower's long-term commitment in the role.

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So I take it from that Grammath that you are not confident that we can get a draw in this one!  As we finished the day on 251-5 we are halfway (bar two runs) to winning it!

Agreed, in all honesty, that this series is gone, and has been gone from pretty early on.  The England players' heads just seem to have gone, the Aussies have got into them and I agree completely with your comments on Lehmann.  A tough Aussie coach galvanising the side, you could see that starting to take shape in the summer series, even though he had to overturn the turmoil that had been caused by the 11th hour sacking of Mickey Arthur.

 

The answer is not a complete overhaul overnight, as I have heard suggested by so many callers to radio programmes today, but I do wonder if, until recently when we have started to see younger players start to appear, the England side has perhaps been harder to get out of than get into. 

 

Andy Flower has been quoted as saying they are not afraid of making tough decisions but I don't see too much evidence of that, a tough decision in my book would be something like dropping Pietersen, not just tinkering with the bowlers.  Considering we were supposed to be taking a battery of 6'5" plus fast bowlers who were going to stick it up their noses and bounce them into submission, the pace attack has been strangely ineffective (Broad maybe excluded) and Finn and Rankin haven't got anywhere near the test side.

 

No matter the end result of the series it has not been an unqualified success I think it would be fair to say (I am a master of under-statement sometimes), and I think it will be interesting to see what Cook and Flower's moves will be when they return home.  I hope for Cook's sake that he doesn't take all of this on his shoulders but there have been mutterings previously about Flower's long-term commitment in the role.

Deep depression this morning. At least we are out of I our misery as we have lost the ashes and it is out of our hands for a number of years now. A period of rebuilding is need now I think. While still in Australia we need to regain some pride and belief in ourselves. You know what they say "pick yourself up,dust yourself off and start all over again". I think that we really need to rethink things somewhat!

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I definitely don't see Cook resigning, I don't think he's that sort of chap and, indeed, might be galvanized by being the England captain that lost the Ashes. He's far from the best captain we've ever had but, as you say, there are no obvious successors. I suppose Broad, as Twenty 20 captain, would be the safe choice were that to happen.  

 

Flower, on the other hand, perhaps ought to consider his position. He's already scaled back his involvement in one day cricket so his focus is meant to be the Test team which has, ever since the world number 1 ranking was relinquished to the South Africans, looked increasingly fragile. I agree with what I've heard in some quarters that he has moulded a team that wants to avoid losing and that's very different from one that wants to win.   

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I definitely don't see Cook resigning, I don't think he's that sort of chap and, indeed, might be galvanized by being the England captain that lost the Ashes. He's far from the best captain we've ever had but, as you say, there are no obvious successors. I suppose Broad, as Twenty 20 captain, would be the safe choice were that to happen.  

 

Flower, on the other hand, perhaps ought to consider his position. He's already scaled back his involvement in one day cricket so his focus is meant to be the Test team which has, ever since the world number 1 ranking was relinquished to the South Africans, looked increasingly fragile. I agree with what I've heard in some quarters that he has moulded a team that wants to avoid losing and that's very different from one that wants to win.

 

I have to admit that I can see where you are coming from stating that we avoid loosing rather than going all out to win. Cook's captaincy seems to be a bit more reactionary than proactive in my mind. Michael Clark seems to be a far stronger captain - not afraid to try something a bit different. Let's hoping loosing the Ashes gives us the shake up needed.

 

As you say Andy Flower needs to make a real commitment or walk away so that someone else can step in. We need now to be looking to the future.

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We must win the next Test against Australia, if only to challenge Shane Warne to run naked around Lords.  Remember he bet he'd do that if England won at the Wacca?

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We must win the next Test against Australia, if only to challenge Shane Warne to run naked around Lords.  Remember he bet he'd do that if England won at the Wacca?

That would be something to see I must admit! About the only aspect of the Ashes tour that we have had to smile about so far!

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Our dear! Turned the TV on this morning to see that we really have hit rock bottom. A five nil defeat is facing us I think. Although I thought that we might struggle on this tour I did not think for one minute that we would do this badly.

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Phew - glad that's finally over!

Yes Grammath it has been a bit of a debacle hasn't it? I only hope that we are not in the wilderness for too long although at the moment I am not quite sure where the team goes from here. Just glad that for the moment the agony is over!

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I think Andy Flower stepping down is a good start. I expect the ever cautious ECB will replace him with Ashley Giles, but given that the ODI team has not distinguished itself either in Australia it is debatable whether this is the right move. I believe many of the problems are in the dressing room so a fresh management team that can create a more adventurous, attacking mind set among the players might be the solution. The Aussies have managed it since their disastrous tour of India in 2012-13 so hopefully we can do the same. 

 

As I mentioned a while ago, there are some players emerging whom one hopes can form the nucleus of a new and improved England but that will take time. We have home series to come against teams uncomfortable in English conditions (Sri Lanka, India) so hopefully some confidence can be instilled in new players over the summer.  

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Having listened to the Sky Sports News today it is looking more and more likely that Ashley Giles will be relacing Andy Flower. I have to admit that I am far from convinced. His record with the ODI and T20 squads is far from great having won less than 50% of the ODI's and only 33% of the T20 matches since taking charge. He never seems to me to be someone capable of inspiring others to any great extent. Lets hope that if he is given the job I am proved to be wrong.

 

As to the state of the dressing room I only hope that whoever does take over is capable of dealing with all the personalities involved. I really do only want to watch or hear about the cricket and not to be constantly confronted with news of the disatisfaction of the players. Lets hope that the introduction of new personal will help us out of the place in which we find ourselves sooner rather than later.

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This latest tour has been a total embarrassment.  I agree with you Gram, we need a clean sweep of management and replacement with some young blood in the team.  Personally I think KP ought not to be in the England dressing room but I'm not sure they will get rid of him all together.  I'm just hoping for the best but prepared for nothing brilliant.

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This latest tour has been a total embarrassment.  I agree with you Gram, we need a clean sweep of management and replacement with some young blood in the team.  Personally I think KP ought not to be in the England dressing room but I'm not sure they will get rid of him all together.  I'm just hoping for the best but prepared for nothing brilliant.

I agree about KP mainly because he does not seem to be able to find any form these days. He seems to achieve less and but still keeps his place. How long will the selecters continue with him based on past form I wonder?

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Just heard the news - Kevin Peterson has been axed from England cricket.  I am over the moon.  Perhaps now they can start to rebuild a team spirit in that dressing room and onto the field. 

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Just heard the news - Kevin Peterson has been axed from England cricket.  I am over the moon.  Perhaps now they can start to rebuild a team spirit in that dressing room and onto the field.

 

Oh my goodness! Having read your thread Barblue I have just turned on Sky Sports News to the headlines that KP's England career is over. I cannot say that I am sorry as like you I think rebuilding the team and any sort of team spirit will be much easier without him. Lets hope for a brighter future!

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Oh my goodness! Having read your thread Barblue I have just turned on Sky Sports News to the headlines that KP's England career is over. I cannot say that I am sorry as like you I think rebuilding the team and any sort of team spirit will be much easier without him. Lets hope for a brighter future!

 

It will but, at the same time, it is undeniable that he is one of the most naturally talented cricketers ever to don an England shirt. The problem was that he knew it and seems to have never let his teammates forget it. Part of me thinks that he won't be too upset by the decision, as his axing will give him the opportunity to rake in some serious cash from being able to play in the IPL for the whole tournament.  

 

On the one hand, one can say he is being made a scapegoat for England's failings this winter. He was our leading run scorer in the series, not that that's saying much. However, he got out in careless and cavalier ways and that's not what a senior professional should be doing. He might well have had the adventurous and attacking spirit I mentioned a few posts ago that I think England need, but struggled to rein it in when he needed to. Ultimately, in a team suffering from a lean run that makes you a liability. 

 

You have to say a man who is on his third county and got Peter Moores sacked as coach well as himself as captain was clearly a difficult man to work with. One wonders if Graeme Swann might still be playing if Pietersen wasn't in the side following the spinner's comments in his autobiography.

 

I hear many cricket loving friends say Pietersen's departure is the result of a failure of management by Cook, Flower and the ECB and that they should be more tolerant of a maverick talent who is hugely popular with the paying public. However, it feels to me like Pietersen has been given more than enough chances and that this is not a decision that would have been taken lightly. As Michael Atherton commented in The Times this morning, Pietersen has simply run out of friends, and for that he can really only blame himself.      

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Very mixed bag of responses to this but ultimately wherever KP has been, and played, there has been unrest.  From Natal, to Notts, Hampshire, England, the Peter Moores saga, textgate, there is unfortunately one common denominator.  I don't think so many others can ALL be wrong.

 

It's a shame in one sense because he is undoubtedly a talent, however I do think for a while now he has remained in the side on past reputation and the belief that he is the one player who can win a test for you, or any other match for that matter, which he hasn't done for quite a long time.  While other players' places get questioned, it seemed that his never was.

 

I know from someone who knows Cook quite well (he is a local boy to us) that he can't stand Pietersen, and sees him as a disruptive influence, not necessarily in a direct manner within the dressing room, but with all the other stuff that goes with him.

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I have been listening to an interview with Michael Vaughan this morning who seems to think that it is the wrong time for kP to leave England. Ian Botham when interviewed yesterday seemed pretty unimpressed too so it seems that the issue is far from over. As Michael Vaughan asked, what happens if the new Director of Cricket (whoever he may be) wants to included KP in any future team? I guess he will not be able to do that so in a way his hands will be tied before he even starts. I only hope that all the bad feeling surrounding the sacking of KP does not drag on and on and that we can fairly soon get back to discussing the cricket!

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Not sure if anyone is watching possibly the greatest sporting event between two countries where each game lasts 5 days ?

A brief guide here for those that don't understand this wonderful tournament  http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/09/ashes-england-cricket-urn

 

After the thrashing of England by Australia in the World Cup, it's doubly important we give an account against the world champions and favourites. And we have :)

The first day after a wobbly start we gave a great performance, mainly due to Joe Root, fast becoming imho one of the greatest batsmen in the world. Today we really pressured Australia and it's looking like becoming a very close and memorable game.

I know Wimbledon is on and must admit to watching and enjoying some of the games. But nothing compares to The Ashes - two great rivals pitting themselves against each other over 5 games with each game lasting 5 days for possibly the smallest trophy in the world :)

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Clavain, I don't think there is any coverage of cricket on TV here although I should maybe check while the Ashes are being played and maybe there will be some segments.  Wimbledon and the other big tournaments get lots of coverage plus Prime League football (called soccer over here). During the summer baseball is big on the sports channels.

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Bit disappointed when I got home from work last night to find that we were nine wickets down. Hoped we would bat well into today to really put this game beyond the reach of The Australians. Now that we are all out with a lead of just over 400 with two full days to go we have let them back in. We need a really good bowling day today. Would hate us to start with a loss, especially when were in such a good position after the first two innings!

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Great result for England today although at one stage I did seriously begin to wonder if Australia might still manage to pull off a win! In the end we won the match pretty convincingly. I just hope that we can keep our new style of play up as we will never beat The Aussies on a regular basis playing conservatively. I fully expect them to come back at us in The Lords test. Great start to The Ashes summer!

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I can see why a thread on cricket might be considered to be cultural, but as all other cricket-related threads have been posted in "General Chat" I have moved this thread out of "Music & Culture" to join them here.

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