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Restored thread (Posts 119 & 120 are missing, I'm unable to locate them in Google's cache) This thread was originally a poll - the votes were: Ebooks 2/9.09%, Physical Paper Books 20/90.91%) #1 1st September 2012, 03:07 PM John Self Paper books vs. eBooks Apologies if debated before, but very interested in your views on paper books vs. eBooks. #2 1st September 2012, 05:41 PM tan629 I can't decide. I prefer reading paper books when I get to choose, but I can read all the classics for free on my kindle. Also, I don't have to go to the bookstore but simply press a button to purchase a book thanks to new technologies, but some paper books have so nice pictures. Sorry, I just can't make my mind to vote. #3 1st September 2012, 08:04 PM momac Hello John Self: I think you need a new category in your poll because some of us like e-books and paper books and might not prefer one over the other. I like e-books for convenience but other times I get paper books from the library and enjoy them too. #4 1st September 2012, 08:55 PM Grammath Welcome to BGO, John, and thanks for diving in with a poll. As Momac observes, this isn't a cut and dried issue and, as you might expect, has generated a considerable amount of debate on the forum. Three threads you might consider reading and commenting on in order that we can understand your perspective on the issue can be found here, here and here. #5 1st September 2012, 09:41 PM John Self Thanks, Grammath, for the welcome. Apologies for not seeking out the older threads first. I will give those a good read. From my perspective I really don't like ebooks. The idea of being tied to a commercial provider and a format that will become obsolete worries me. It means books can't be shared and preserved in the same way. You cannot really own them, as your relationship with the text is mediated through a commercial provider. I guess many people don't see books as long-term possessions so these things don't matter. #6 2nd September 2012, 11:50 AM Viccie I prefer paper books, I like collecting them, looking at them, browsing through them, dipping into them, reading them in the bath (yes, I know some people say you can read a Kindle through a plastic bag but I wouldn't like to try). But, I'm getting older and becoming long sighted and from what I hear ebooks are really good when reading ordinary print starts getting difficult. So some time, before I get to the point I can't get to grips with anything new, I'm going to have to get an e reader and get used to them. Not for a while yet, I hope. #7 2nd September 2012, 01:53 PM lunababymoonchild I voted but didn't post because I've already posted on ebooks on another thread. I prefer paper books for pretty much the same reasons Joh Self states although I do see paper books as long term possessions. Viccie, there are glasses (spectacles) that you can get for reading. I only wear mine when driving and if I feel the need for TV and wouldn't at all be happy if I had to wear them for reading but if it's a choice between reading and not, I daresay I'd have to wear them. #8 2nd September 2012, 05:36 PM Romanike I would like to differentiate a bit. E-books have one obvious advantage against paper-books: the ability to do a full-text search. Thus, while I would refrain from reading fiction on an e-book reader, there is a clear benefit in e-dictionaries, non-fiction and textbooks. I sometimes wish I could take electronic versions of my expensive reference books from one of my homes to the other, because I often miss them there when I have to check some details, they are too weighty and voluminous to carry them around and I hesitate for obvious reasons to buy them twice. Not to mention that the detail I need could be much faster found in an e-book. And every time I hear my daughter complain about her unergonomical 10 kg schoolbag, I wish they would at last start to convert schoolbooks into e-books! #9 2nd September 2012, 06:04 PM Minxminnie Yep! They would also be easier to get back off the kids at the end of the school year. And the information in them could be updated as required. And you could link to definitions, worked examples etc. I'm really surprised at the lack of movement in this area: not one publisher has sent me a flyer offering an e-textbook. (I'm in charge of an English dept, and I get lots of flyers from publishers. But no e-books) #10 2nd September 2012, 08:10 PM lunababymoonchild I use my electronic encyclopedia/dictionary et al for most things. For research I use the internet. #11 3rd September 2012, 07:56 AM Barblue Having voted and looked at the poll I find the restuls to date interesting - not one vote for an e-reader. Yet, I think quite a few of us in this community have one. I have had an e-reader for about three years but rarely use it. I know it has its uses and is much easier to carry around than a book (or books) but somehow I just don't get the satisfaction holding an e-reader that I do when holding a book. Another factor that keeps me buying books (I know I should stop and get some of those on my TBR pile read) is the ned to keep bookshops alive and running. Having already lost Borders and knowing that Amazon (whilst I do buy from them to help BGO) is not helping the survival of bookshops, I feel I ought to do my bit if I can. In any case I love browsing bookshops. and buying books. #12 3rd September 2012, 04:43 PM lunababymoonchild Yes, there is a pleasure in thumbing through actual paper books and, oddly perhaps, I enjoy looking through actual paper books online. The 'look inside' feature that Amazon has isn't as pleasurable for Kindle ebooks as it is for paper. #13 3rd September 2012, 06:15 PM Romanike A splendid argument that I read today: With e-books, you can never tell whether that nice young lady in the bus is reading Marx or Sparks. #14 3rd September 2012, 07:46 PM Lectora Romanike, why won't you read fiction as an e-book? I got on far better with Dostoevsky (Crime & Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov) on the Kindle than I would have done had I read from paper books. The Kindle provides a "seamless" read and it weighs next to nothing whereas paper Russian novels weigh a ton (well, not quite) and are usually in small print. Consider the amount of time and effort page turning takes. I never noticed this until I read a long novel on the Kindle. As for non-fiction./ reference books, it depends what they are. I would never read a book with footnotes and end of chapter notes on the Kindle. I read quite a bit of theology and Biblical scholarship, but not on the Kindle. I do read poetry on the Kindle but it takes me a time to go through to find out where the poems and their notes are located. #15 3rd September 2012, 08:09 PM jfp Who is Sparks? The pun on Marks & Sparks (retailers) doesn't really work if Sparks doesn't exist... (And yes, I know who Marx is. Or was.) #16 3rd September 2012, 08:10 PM Minxminnie I thought it was Nicholas Sparks - he of The Notebook and other soapy novels. #17 3rd September 2012, 08:25 PM jfp Oh, right... (Never heard of him, I'm afraid to say...) so I take it all back. EDIT: I note on wikipedia that Nicholas Sparks "resides" in North Carolina... Given that I merely "live" in Paris, it makes sense that I've never heard of him. #18 3rd September 2012, 10:07 PM lunababymoonchild Never heard of him either, but I didn't want to ask. Thanks for clearing that up #19 4th September 2012, 09:53 AM MarkC I am a "neither", since buying my kindle I still buy fiction in paper form as well as electronically. The kindle scores in a few areas. One is immediacy. When finishing the first (paper) book in a series on a Sunday afternoon, it is so nice to be able to go online and buy the second and start reading it in a few minutes. Another is out of copyright books, no need to buy a print copy when they can be downloaded for free. This links into the last (that I can think of for now), which is the amount of wall space in my house that is already filled with bookshelves and the complete absence of space for more books on them! That said I still like my books and still buy more. At least the TBR pile doesn't grow as fast now, since part of it is a pile of bytes #20 4th September 2012, 01:24 PM Lectora Mark C. I agree with you absolutlely. I read from both too and since our little bungalow won't take many more paper books, I'm buying more for the Kindle - but I still buy paper book "bargains" in chairty shops and from our "book corner" in church. #21 5th September 2012, 08:17 AM My Friend Jack Both have their place in my world. Since I received my Kindle last Christmas, it's slowly started to take over from paper. I never keep paperbacks when I've read them, but I do have a large collection of music reference books that take up an impressive amount of shelf space. So I guess I prefer e-books for entertainment, and paper for reference. For the purpose of the vote, I'm going to go for e-books. Sorry and all that! #22 5th September 2012, 03:12 PM Romanike But is the Kindle able to display cyrillic letters? I have never tried it really. I only read gigabytes of PDF files at the PC monitor and find that rather clumsy in comparison to a good paper print. Flipping back and forth is also something that an e-book does not provide that easily. And I know me. I am sure that the same effect will occur as with my mobile phone: Whenever I will want to use the reader, I will find that in the meantime its battery will have discharged. And if it drops into the bathtub, a thousand DRM-protected books will be lost, not just a single one. Ditto if your reader is stolen, which is an increasingly common crime. But no one will steal your bookshelves from your home! And, BTW, call it paranoia if you may, but I don't want Big Brother Amazon to know what I'm reading! EOC notes are irksome, anyway. After slashing my way through twelve volumes of "The History of Middle-earth" I am firmly convinced that there must be better methods. Last edited by Romanike : 6th September 2012 at 09:17 AM. #23 6th September 2012, 09:39 AM Lectora Romanike, apologies for not making it clear I read Dostoevsky in English and not Russian! Amazon may or not know I have read the two novels. The uncertainty is caused by the fact that they were downloaded free from Project Gutenberg. Of course they are listed on the Kindle but they are ignored. I noticed particularly that I did not get from Amazon any further publicity relating to any comparable novels (if there are any). I'm not too bothered as to whether Amazon know what I read or not. It is a fairly mixed bag anyway. Occasionally, I think they are confused.... I must confess I've heard of people reading paper books in the bath but as for taking anything electronic near water, well.... We have a shower, no bath and I'm not attempting to read anything under a shower. As for the battery running down, that's a common problem in clocks and watches and should not be too much of a concern. I use my mobile phone cable to charge up the Kindle, much quicker than the USB one. I don't take the Kindle where I am likely to lose it, have it stolen etc. When it does go out, it resides in the zipped inner pocket of my shoulder bag, alongside my wallet. Of course that could be stolen too! Yes, I agree about reading long PDF files on a computer screen - a pain in the neck and the eyes, but that is not a Kindle problem. I agree with My Friend Jack - both the Kindle and paper books "have a place in my world" #24 6th September 2012, 09:27 PM waawo I think I'm like a lot of other people with ebooks: since getting a Kindle, I've bought quite a few books on it (and downloaded a fair few free classics too), but I don't prefer either paper books or ebooks. They both have a place for me. There are some paper books I won't be getting rid of any time soon: some books written by someone I knew well for example. But space is limited where we are now, so it's nice to just buy ebooks without worrying about finding space for them! Best feature of the Kindle for me: being able to adjust the font size. I don't think my eyesight is particularly poor, but being able to adjust the font depending on prevailing light and level of tiredness is great. And I have recently started reading the Kindle in the bath! I just use a ziplock type plastic bag to protect it from the water. I've never dropped a paper book in the bath, but there's a first time for everything! #25 7th September 2012, 09:32 AM MarkC If your kindle breaks or is stolen you can register the replacement with your exisitng Amazon account and all the purchased books will appear on it, the same applies using Kindle "apps" such as on a PC or mobile telephone, just log into the amazon account and they appear. Things you put on it yourself (e.g. things from project Gutenberg) will not, obviously. #26 7th September 2012, 09:47 AM Ailecornum If you are using the ePub competition, you don't even lose the Gutenenberg's, as they can all be copied over from you computer. Actually, you should be able to transfer them to your kindle from your computer too, so win/win either way. But the point about your purchases being known by the bookshops you buy from is still valid. I suspect it's far easier to track someone's book purchases through online shops than from print bookshops. Using ePub, I shop at a range of online bookshops, but it would still be pretty traceable being electronic. Of course if you wanted to walk into my house you could very easily see what I've got in print format. #27 7th September 2012, 12:38 PM nonsuch Kindle for me is great for dictionaries and reference books - those clumsy hulks that take up time and space, but for more 'precious' or 'personal' books that I expect to either love and keep (or else bundle off to friends or charity shops) there's no substitute for a real paper book that I can possess, handle and look at its spine or cover. Only then do I feel it's mine. However, I do have some novels on Kindle that I have re-read with pleasure and will keep for a while at least. I feel about them a little as one does about a library book - that it's not really mine to keep, mark, wander through at will at any time. I'd 'buy' more if they were cheaper, which no doubt they soon will be. #28 8th September 2012, 09:18 PM Romanike How can you have an e-book signed by the author, I wonder? I have various signed books at home, including one with the signature of spaceflight pioneer Hermann Oberth inside which is particularly precious to me. Are those collections doomed to die? #29 9th September 2012, 11:53 AM lunababymoonchild I don't think that the advent of ebooks is going to kill off the paper book. For myself, and I'm rapidly running out of space to house my paper books, I'm just too lazy to own an ebook reader. I pick up my book, open it, read it, close it and that's all I have to think about. Ebook readers need to be managed, switched on, bookmarked, switched off and charged. My father has a Kindle and all he does with it is switch it on, bookmark it and switch it off, which is pretty much too much trouble for him. And he generally has no idea what book he's reading on the Kindle at the time. I'm not against ebooks and their ereaders, I'm just saying that it's not for me. #30 9th September 2012, 02:05 PM Lectora I think it also depends on where you live as to how valuable the Kindle is for nurturing your reading habits. I live in a rural area. We have a small branch county library in our little market town while the nearest bookshop for new books is 16 miles away. The library will order books which sometimes take weeks to arrive and you may have to pay for them if they have been lent by another authority. The LEA has an ebook lending service but whenever I've looked for a title, it has not been there. This service will take time to build up. We do have 2 good second hand bookshops locally, a book section in a charity shop (from which I've just bought 2 more paperbacks by Paolo Coelho) and in our church a surprisingly good "book corner" of secondhand books to buy very cheaply . Locals know about the service and there are always new additions whenever one has a browse. People also lend books to each other. I buy new books from Amazon as most folk do locally. The Kindle has its drawbacks; some of these may get fewer as methods to correct them are found. I've been very impressed so far with the new series of Delphic Classics for the Kindle. I've now bought for £1. 95 per collection, all the works of Jane Austen, Shakespeare, Dickens and Trollope. Included in each collection are acclaimed critical essays, b&w illustrations and the ability to go straight to any work you want without the tiresome business of clicking through till you get there. Over 2 years ago, we moved from a large family house (and got rid of a lot of books) to a small 2 bedroomed bungalow which now overflows with books. The Kindle becomes more appreciated as the days go by. #31 15th September 2012, 11:13 PM tagesmann I thought I didn't mind. I thought: I preferred ebooks for fiction and physical books for reference I liked the smell of physical books I liked the feel of physical books I liked shelves full of physical books. I realised: ebooks are just so much more convenient. Last edited by tagesmann : 16th September 2012 at 12:38 PM. #32 16th September 2012, 11:34 AM Romanike SACRILEGE! For German readers, there is nothing more terrible than to throw books away. People keep claiming it's because of our history in book burnings. #33 16th September 2012, 07:16 PM Lectora I think I should have been more explicit Romanike. When I wrote that "I got rid of a lot of books" I should have explained that: 1.The theology books we did not want went to a trainee Anglican Reader (lay minister) and her son, a priest 2. The rest went to 2 local second hand bookshops and 1 charity shop. 3. A few to family and friends, who had first choice anyway. We never throw books away unless they are falling to pieces. Old Bibles present a real problem. Traditionally in Judaism, sacred manuscripts are buried, never burned. There is something quite appalling about burning books anyway. One of the greatest ironies of the Protestant Reformation here in England was that of Henry VIII burning copies of Tyndale's New Testament as fast as they came into the country (before he and a few others had Tyndale burned at the stake in Holland). Then it turned out that Anne Boleyn had a copy of Tyndale's NT in her dressing room and it was not long before HVIII came round to the idea that an English Bible was "a good thing", at just about the same time Tyndale was put to death. Just a thought - It is very easy to get rid of a Bible on the Kindle, and without any qualms, I should think. The same for the Qur'an? #34 17th September 2012, 08:01 AM Romanike Don't worry, Lectora, I had guessed that much already. But I wonder whether burning CDs or USB sticks would meet the same reservations? Somehow, people seem to be less hesitant about deleting files than about destroying printed paper. Which might be another argument against e-books. Is there any hope that an operational Kindle would still be found 700 years from now in some ancient monastery, or is all the cultural heritage of the 21st century bound to be killed by DRM? #35 17th September 2012, 11:39 AM Lectora You don't need to bother burning CDs etc. They just become redundant. That goes for a lot of modern technology. The hope is of course, that the literature, cultural heritage etc of the past is recorded onto the latest gadget before the old one goes for re-cycling. Of course, you have to be able read the files to record them. computer formats become redundant too. My computer won't read docx files and I've to ask the sender to convert to doc before I can read what is sent. #36 17th September 2012, 03:59 PM lunababymoonchild I'm coming round to ebooks very fast indeed. My father had just bought an Apple iPad and I've just (this minute!) downloaded a sample of Justine, Marquis de Sade, which is on sale for all of 49p. I love the way Apple's ebooks handle. They have the title of the book at the top of one page, the author at the top of the other page and page numbers (eg page 3 of 92) at the bottom and you can turn the page as you would a paper book. They also have a whole host of highlight/notes/definition tools too and you can change the font, style (yet to be investigated) and font size tools too. Marvellous. Although it's quite a heavy piece of equipment imho, we now have a stand for it which makes it easier to handle and of course it's not as thick as some of the tomes I'm in possession of. #37 17th September 2012, 04:25 PM David In fact that's the other way around. The docx files are produced by the more recent versions of Word, whilst doc files are the old version. If you upgrade to a newer Word you won't have that problem, though there are also viewers available online which will make the files viewable for you. #38 17th September 2012, 06:33 PM Romanike Well, the current edition of LibreOffice converts to doc without a problem, but whenever I convert to docx, my customers cannot open the files with any of the recent Word versions. #39 17th September 2012, 08:28 PM tagesmann There is an add-on available from Microsoft to allow older versions of Office to read docx and xlsx files. I think it works for editions from 2003 onwards. #40 17th September 2012, 09:33 PM Romanike It does. I have it installed with Word 2000 even. Well, some of my software is as mesozoic as I. But you see the problem? A scroll you can still read after 2000 years, the content of a floppy disk has been lost after 20 years. Those on a DVD are sometimes lost 20 minutes later. #41 17th September 2012, 10:16 PM Lectora Our local computer guru puts the Word compliant free Open Office on the computers he sells. I have one of them and so does my husband. Open Office does not read docx files. Romanike, I don't follow your argument because people will always back up files recorded with old technology on to a newer system. Files I had on a floppy went to a CD and then on to a pen drive. I insisted that a floppy drive unit be supplied with my present computer. I'm using now on pew sheets church graphics I had saved on floppies 12 years ago. I started off with an Amiga in 1990. When I got my first PC in 1992, I acquired some software that converted both Amiga text and graphics for the PC. I produced paper books on knit design from those! Paper books and electronic readers can work in tandem. There is no need to force a conflict between them. I must confess I still don't know a lot about computers. Im fairly au fait with designing and manipulating graphics in paint programs, but I've no idea how to write a book list for BGO and provide a link to it. so that I can write it on the bottom of a message as so many accomplished members do. I bet I'm not the only "newbie" (or fairly) who does not know either. Can't find an explanation anywhere. #42 17th September 2012, 10:27 PM Romanike Wish it was! Alas, some of my oldest manuscripts went the way of the 8 inch disk because there was no system that could convert them to another data carrier. And I still have some lesser floppys around but no drive to read them. A few of them contain manuscripts written (not by me) in MS-Works which is compatible to nothing but itself. And a company I once worked for used a rather awkward text system because their principal customer had it, then the customer switched to more popular products, and now years of archive files can no longer be read because no one ever bothered about developing converters for this niche product at all. I am afraid that the same will happen with the current e-book formats. #43 17th September 2012, 10:27 PM David First of all you need an entry in the Book List thread recording the year's reading, which I see you already have. Then you follow the instructions here. Announcements and Tips is a good forum to nose around for handy things like this. #44 18th September 2012, 12:52 AM grasshopper I have recently discovered that there are limits to how many different computers/ devices you can use for your ebooks(6) or your audiobooks(4), although I can of course redownload to the same computer multiple times. I believe when you have used this limit you then have to re purchase your books. Have I understood this correctly? If so, this is a huge disadvantage over a paper book that will last you a lifetime. I am unlikely to go through more than one more laptop in my lifetime, but my children and grandchildren will certainly go through several computers with the updating of technology, so this seems very unreasonable. I recognise that this is to prevent sharing from one purchase, but surely this could be overcome in some way. Has anyone else come across this as a problem? #45 18th September 2012, 09:42 AM Ailecornum grasshopper, I have found this a problem with my Kindle (I have a Kobo as well - professional reasons, not native idiocy. I recently purchased a kindle book and couldn't get it to download to my PC with Kindle app. So I tried to download it again and it still didn't appear. At attempt no 3 it informed me I'd exceeded my downloads to multiple sources and would I like to buy it again. Now feeling disgruntled as I still can't read the book on my Kindle. Rather than buy it again I purchased a cheaper ePub version and have read it on my Kobo. Amazon help crew are very good but I'd already had one go with this title and they ended up refunding me so I could start again. As I tried again almost immediately, I didn't have the 'face' to email str8 back and ask them to take the book back a second time. ePub books can be saved onto a disk and uploaded again to a new devise, which gives some surety. However, if the book were removed from circulation, it would be 'eaten' as soon as you synced your ereader to the Internet. So only partial security there. #46 18th September 2012, 09:49 AM Romanike Fahrenheit 451 of the 21st century. *Mental image of uniformed Amazon staff breaking into your apartment and eating books from your shelves* #47 18th September 2012, 07:30 PM Lectora David, thank you as always for your help. #48 18th September 2012, 08:00 PM Lectora Thirty years ago, a friend, thoroughly enamoured of new technolgy, prophesied that in 30 years (from 1982) there would be no paper books. Now, she refuses to have an e-reader and is a leading light in one of our local book groups, reading only paper books. I do not think paper books will be eliminated, but will exist alongside electronic ones for many years to come. On the other hand, I note the decline in hand writing skills. I used to hand write and enjoy writing long letters to friends. Now I tend to neglect those who do not have email. Typing on a computer is a very different skill. I'm reading Clare Tomalin's biography of Dickens. She got a lot of her background information from archived hand written letters. #49 18th September 2012, 09:32 PM tagesmann Both OpenOffice and LibreOffice can open docx - sometimes via an add-on. But they don't really like the format. But that is Microsoft's fault really. docx is supposed for meet some open standards but doesn't. By the way, LibreOffice is produced by the Document Foundation - the original OpenOffice developers. It started when members of the OpenOffice.org project formed The Document Foundation and created LibreOffice from OpenOffice becuase Oracle Corporation had purchased Sun Microsystems. They were concerned that Oracle would either discontinue OpenOffice.org, or place restrictions on it as an open source project, as it had on Sun's OpenSolaris #50 18th September 2012, 11:54 PM grasshopper Ailecornum, sorry you have had problems and lost a book. I shall just try and keep all my audible books on the same laptop for ever and hope it keeps going but it is rather old. When my computer died recently, due to a virus attack I hadn't backed up the audible books as I thought they would still be in an itunes library. Not so. I had to re download each singly from my audible library and as there are about 400, many in 2 parts it took a very long time. Since then I have backed them up on several discs, just to be sure, as they will download that way quite quickly. However, I did notice that all those that were actually downloaded onto my ipod before the computer died stayed there, so maybe several ipods with huge memories ? Not within my budget! Romanike, loved your comment re Fahrenheit 451 Just imagine if you didn't know about these limits and suddenly, feeling very pleased with a new up to date computer, you found ALL your online books had gone...................... #51 19th September 2012, 08:04 AM Romanike Sensible, since the paper book replaced the parchment scroll which in turn replaced the papyrus charta that was the successor of the birchwood plate. Unfortunately, an e-book reader is much less suitable to squash flies and mosquitoes with than a book, not to mention a newspaper. Which is a benefit for some. Both my children are left-handed, and they have a hard time writing in ink without smearing in what feels for them to be the wrong direction. Any keyboard is a pleasure for them. (I often wonder how Israeli and Arab children learn to write the other way - or are most of them left-handers?) Last edited by Romanike : 19th September 2012 at 09:29 AM. #52 19th September 2012, 11:09 AM tagesmann I save my Kindle purchases to hard drive and remove the DRM via Calibre. Although this is against the licence rules it means that I can read them on other devices should my Kindle break. #53 19th September 2012, 11:23 AM Ailecornum That's a useful thought tagesmann. I'll file that one away for later use #54 19th September 2012, 11:27 AM Ailecornum Oh Romanilke, do you think they'd echomp the books or more plainly eradicate ;-) And bad luck, grasshopper, that's a lot of tedious work. I've done similar when the technologies changed and it's very boring! #55 20th September 2012, 10:30 AM Lectora Tagesmann, thank you for all the info re. OpenOffice. When I upgrade my computer which could be soon, I shall ask for Word to be put back on. At present, I receive most documents as doc. but recently, I've been getting more as docx. Usually, the senders have been obliging and re-sent as doc. I'm referring to documents I need for my church work. Re. if the Kindle "breaks" - the record of one's books is on Amazon and one cannot just "lose" them? As for the Gutenberg ones, they can easily be down-loaded again. Most of my books on the Kindle are either free or low-priced. I have a few which were fairly expensive. I am more of a "traditional" reader and am tending to keep the Kindle more as a library for books published before 1922 Re. Calibre, I have a friend who uses Calibre to convert ebooks he borrows from his county library, in spite of the warning that Amazon do not allow the library to loan books to a Kindle owner. I gather the situation is different in the USA. A few years ago, I made an in depth study of an 1891 hand knitted lace sampler in the collection of the Knitting & Crochet Guild who were going to publish it. They did n't. I've been in touch for some years now with an American publisher of hand and machine books who asked me recently if I had anything else she could publish even though I came out of the knitting craft scene some years ago, I remembered the lace study I'd put on a CD, sent it to her. She is so delighted with it that she is going to publish it (after editing etc) via Amazon and for the Kindle as well as a paper book. I would not agree to Kindle only, by the way. Now we have to decide how much to charge what in effect was 10 months of work. I deciphered every pattern (51 altogether, some quite unusual, knitted in cotton no thicker than button thread) wrote each pattern out for hand knitters, and in symbol charts for machine knitters. Amazon of course will charge less than we say. At present, they sell my previously published books second hand. I note my Machine Knitting: The Technique of Lace Stitch (pub. B T Batsford 1992) is £24.50 (originally a few pounds less) All this activity is eating into my present reading time, what with family responsibilities, pew sheet writing and poster making for an ancient, beautiful church as well as everything else! I'll report in the correct thread when the book is published. #56 20th September 2012, 01:11 PM Ailecornum Lectora, this sounds fascinating and I can't wait, although I realise that publishing takes ages. If I can, I confess I'd want to buy this one in paper version. #57 20th September 2012, 01:18 PM momac Nice that's there will be a good outcome for all of your hard and intricate work Lectora. Congrats on success. #58 20th September 2012, 06:14 PM Romanike This is subject to significant regional differences. Due to a rather troublesome old law, German/Austrian e-books are as expensive as their printed versions. So, losing your Kindle has the financial effect of half your flat burning down. No wonder that there is no e-book market to speak of here. #59 20th September 2012, 08:09 PM tagesmann In UK and USA eBook prices are set by the publishers and not the retailers so prices vary wildly. And in the UK sales tax is payable on them but not on physical books. But my point about the Kindle breaking was not meant to suggest that purchased books would be lost. They wouldn't be as they are always available to re-download. That would only happen if both the device (or any other Kindle app) broke and Amazon ceased trading. Or, as happened to me in the early days of eBooks, the retailer decided to change format and no longer support the old format (as Adobe did). But I prefer to have my books backed up should my Kindle break and I not be able to afford a replacement. #60 21st September 2012, 11:55 AM Romanike And you are perfectly happy with Amazon knowing the content of your whole library and do with that knowledge whatever Amazon deems fit? Take care to avoid anything vaguely suspicious then. In days like these, even "Video editing for dummies" may already be considered a provocation by interested circles ... #61 21st September 2012, 12:51 PM lunababymoonchild Amazon already knows every product that I've bought over the years including books and has yet to do anything suspicious with the information. They do provide recommendations which are easily ignored. I don't see how buying e-books could be more 'dangerous'. #62 21st September 2012, 01:52 PM tagesmann Likewise every Internet retailer and every store that uses loyalty cards. It's a fact of life. It isn't. #63 22nd September 2012, 05:43 AM Ailecornum Quite so. I have a few loyalty cards with print based bookshops and suppose they can track my purchases through that. Although a really determined Big Brother would only need to access my credit card history. Probably more easily than I can at times!! I have a few friends who try to exist with cash only but that is becoming increasingly hard to do, as so many places (my own workplace included), require you to operate via credit cards, if not Visa cards. #64 22nd September 2012, 04:40 PM Lectora I live 16 miles from a supermarket and about once a month get an order delivered from Asda (only Asda and Tesco deliver in the Dales). When I get to the Checkout, I am asked "Have you forgotten anything?" and up comes a list of what I've bought previously and what I have not got this time. In actual fact, I'm grateful for the reminder. I usually have forgotten something! I quite often am amused at the reminders from Amazon as to what books and other items I might be interested in - all from my previous browsing sessions #65 22nd September 2012, 05:02 PM Romanike For that reason I do not have any such card. Mind you, I do not even have a credit card! In Germany, you get everything on cash and any company that would insist on credit cards would not survive long (even Amazon had to learn this the hard way). People are wisely suspicious about online Gestapos, Stasis et al. knowing things about you. It's the different history, you know. This I find rather chilly, for example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/201...is-watching-you What has happened to "My home is my castle", I wonder? #66 22nd September 2012, 05:45 PM lunababymoonchild Yup and the article also says "And if a reader doesn't want to share details of how they read with Kobo, they are able to go offline and refrain from note-taking. "We get data when people are using the server and have been reading a certain book. If someone wants to read a book, we will know if they purchased it. If they don't bookmark, and they're not online when they're reading, and they're not taking notes, we're not going to glean much information except for the purchase itself," I daresay that you can do that with the Kindle too. #67 22nd September 2012, 08:29 PM Romanike Not that easily. You have to hack the Kindle to disable its Big Brother functionality by manually altering its scripts. That can be done, but at a risk and with loss of warranty. And this one is even more eerie: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505124_...where-youll-go/ Nice. So not only Apple, but Amazon as well will be able to track you down in your girlfriend's bed and send your wife a book recommendation on "Divorce for Dummies". #68 22nd September 2012, 10:06 PM momac Good reason to behave I would think if you have a credit card in Germany. #69 22nd September 2012, 10:15 PM lunababymoonchild Previous article says "they are able to go offline and refrain from note-taking". And the Kindle is an ebook reader, in order to determine location you need GPS/SatNav, I'm pretty certain that Kindle doesn't have GPS/Satnav. Internet's a wonderful place, you can find anything you want. Next you'll be posting instructions on how to make a bomb using yer ebooks and yer Kindle. #70 22nd September 2012, 10:39 PM tagesmann If you don't want Amazon to know what you are reading don't buy anything from them and don't go on line with your Kindle. It's not hard. The Kindle Fire - which is a tablet - may have. But again, it can be disabled. Damn! I meant to avoid this thread. I'll leave quietly... #71 23rd September 2012, 07:46 AM lunababymoonchild Yes, we have strayed somewhat, and I'm going to avoid this pointless exercise too. #72 23rd September 2012, 09:04 AM Romanike I am sorry for the distraction. Maybe there is a cultural bias involved. There is currently a rather hot debate in German media about these Big Brother functions, especially after it has been found that certain apps autonomously activate integrated mikes and cameras to send records around for unknown reasons - and they cannot be deactivated. There are many people glueing tape on their webcam lenses since. I take it that this is no topic (yet?) in the UK, but concerns about data privacy are taken rather seriously on this side of the Channel. #73 23rd September 2012, 09:14 AM Cassie I've never really wanted an eReader, but thought since I had an iPad I would try the Kindle app. I downloaded one free classic, one I wanted to read, as a trial. That was a few weeks ago, I still haven't managed to get beyond the second page. I guess I'm glad I wasn't tempted to invest. No problem with shelf space thank goodness, although my shelves are full, any that I don't think I'll read again just get Bookcrossed. This is where paper books win hands down for me, multiple readers, nothing like it for simple pleasure, when your books are passed on, read and passed on again. @lectora re burying books. Not sure if this would be appropriate. Earlier this year, I received a Bookcrossing book, that was on it's last legs, having been read by very many readers, it was time to retire and replace it with another copy. Not wanting to just chuck it in the city recycling, I decided to shred it and bury it in my bean trench. In spite of the dreadfully wet summer we have had here, my French beans have been fantastic! I have another retiree ready for next year. #74 23rd September 2012, 09:52 AM grasshopper Cassie that is a great idea. Do you think certain vegetables like particular genres? Perhaps you could let us have the title of the one that made the French Beans happy? #75 23rd September 2012, 10:29 AM Romanike No doubt that "The Lord of the Rings" is ideal for pipeweed ... sorry, tobacco plantations. #76 23rd September 2012, 11:48 AM Minxminnie Having friends in Germany, I'm very aware of this cultural difference. My friends send me books and DVDs via an online seller - buch.de, I think - but they pay by a more complicated bank transfer method so that the merchant doesn't hold their details. They are fairly evangelical about this, and they are surprised at how relaxed I am about giving out my credit card details. I haven't heard the webcam thing. But my friends believed, years ago, that the secret services listened in randomly on calls and screened them for suspicious words. So, in a spirit of mischief, they would throw in words like "bomb" into a conversation about, say, babysitting arrangements. This was all a bit frivolous, but it taps into something very German, I think, and something that we find harder to comprehend. Having said that, I know people who don't have loyalty cards for similar reasons to the ones cited - and I am a bit freaked out when I am viewing a website and the sidebar ads are directed straight at me, advertising things I was just looking at elsewhere. I know how it's done; I just don't like it. Anyway, now I am leading the thread way off topic. Sorry. I don't have an ereader yet, tho I might consider it as they get cheaper. I don't intend to make it my main reading source, though - too many issues compared to the nice simplicity of books. I'm lucky that I have space to store them, and I enjoy sharing my books, so an ereader wouldn't keep me happy, but I might get one for travelling, so I can take less "in case" books with me. #77 23rd September 2012, 01:41 PM momac One advantage of having an Amazon Kindle (which I didn't know about until a friend told me) was that I could send a book back if it was not what I wanted. I was reading a book by Sandra Brown, who usually writes a half decent mystery but with a side of romance, and after a number of pages it was turning into a silly story so I put it into the archives. When I told a friend she said "why don't you return it". So I went on to Amazon and sure enough I was able to return it for a refund. They just remove it from your Kindle and refund your credit card within 2 - 5 days. I don't think they'd allow you to abuse this kind of transaction but it's the first time I've done it - so rather than keeping a book which I wasn't going to read back it went through WIFI. Seems like magic! The wonders of modern technology. #78 23rd September 2012, 05:44 PM Romanike Lack of historical experience, I deem. The Germans have been exposed to up to 60 years of seeing their privacy sniffed out by various repressive systems just for the sake of sniffing, as it seemed. So they have naturally developed a healthy mistrust against further attempts, even if it was for "harmless" commercial reasons only - after all, you never know who will tomorrow be in charge and just happy to get your profile. I think a similar attitude will be found all over Eastern Europe. I am positive at least for Austria. As for webcam sniffing, here are some details that suffice to have any concerned German grab some non-transparent tape: http://www.tellinitlikeitis.net/200...of-webcams.html So, back to topic. That is the advantage of a printed book: Once you got it, it is truly yours and no one can track what you are doing with it or expose you to digital book burnings of the kind Amazon has been notorious of in the past. Not to mention the ecstasy of taking a really old book into your hands and open those pages full of illuminated thoughts from ages ago. You won't get that feeling from picking up an 8 inch floppy disk. Postscriptum: There is another, very serious problem with the ebook business. Quoting Simon Scarrow, not quite an unknown name in writing, who writes on his website: And this article adds: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...tal-piracy.html For that reason, none of my works is available as e-books. I think this business will die in the long run, for it simply is not worth the investment. Last edited by Romanike : 24th September 2012 at 08:44 AM. #79 24th September 2012, 10:54 AM grasshopper That is a very good point, Romanike, I have to agree that the pleasure of actually handling a book, especially one you have had a long time, or which has an associated memory, far outweighs just reading on a kindle or listening to audio. My father gave me a Complete Shakespeare in 1950, such a special book and still going strong after much use. How often do you go to the bookshelves for one reason and then get sidetracked dipping in from one loved book to another, finding time has suddenly slipped away? An enjoyable experience, not possible with ebooks. A paper book makes it easy to flick back to find a favourite conversation or phrase, or sort out one of many characters or recheck shifting timelines. With audible this is impossible without much repetition and even with ebooks I have found it fiddly, although I do not own a kindle and so my experience is limited. Many of my audio books were of paper books I already own, bought so I could enjoy them again whilst I did gardening, housework or walking. There are still so many people in the world who love and appreciate books and encourage the same in their children, friends or students that paper books will continue to be in demand and treasured possessions. Ultimately the paper resources required may be the deciding factor of whether or not they survive, so it is good that there are electronic means to keep the content alive and available for the future. Last edited by grasshopper : 24th September 2012 at 11:12 AM. #80 24th September 2012, 12:38 PM Romanike And what about the pleasure of taking a printed book to a public reading and have it signed by the author? Or, as it has happened to me, of buying an ancient book by a very famous author for just a few euros on a flea-market and discovering at home that it has his precious signature inside? Try that with a Kindle. Last edited by Romanike : 24th September 2012 at 02:57 PM. #81 24th September 2012, 06:31 PM Cassie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest! #82 25th September 2012, 07:47 AM Romanike Another potential argument against e-books - a project for DRM with DNA analysis: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2012/0240223.html Sony applied for this under the title "PROCESS AND APPARATUS FOR AUTOMATICALLY IDENTIFYING USER OF CONSUMER ELECTRONICS", United States Patent Application 20120240223, as a means to personalise DRM-protected data to individual users. The patent application reads: Rather eerie if I consider to how many individuals this blood-sucking needle may be applied. I seriously wonder how, if at all, they think to keep it sterilised to prevent various users from infecting each other. I at least would not trust a device that tries to sting me! Last edited by Romanike : 25th September 2012 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Potentially objectionable phrasing removed #83 25th September 2012, 03:13 PM lunababymoonchild This morning I reported the above post to admin/mods because I thought that it was wholly inappropriate. #84 25th September 2012, 03:21 PM Romanike Sorry if you think that I offended you, that was not my purpose at all. I altered the indicated content accordingly. Last edited by Romanike : 25th September 2012 at 05:09 PM. #85 25th September 2012, 06:56 PM lunababymoonchild It's not that it's offensive, it's that it's preposterous. Kindles cannot sample blood, they can't convert said sample into electronic data and they can't transmit it. Neither can games consoles or any other device. In this country, you'd need a warrant to get a DNA sample, which I understand is difficult enough to get under the correct circumstances without a simple DRM issue. Naturally I can't possibly say what happens in Germany. #86 25th September 2012, 10:05 PM momac It does sound like science fiction doesn't it. #87 25th September 2012, 10:10 PM Lectora Luna, I think it is because Romanike feels so strongly about any of us not having a Kindle or any other E book for that matter, that he resorts to such inappropriate language. He is wanting to persuade those of us who have an ebook that we have made a seriously bad choice, one that could even land us in jail! I don't feel he is threatening me at all. I think he will end up only scaring himself. He is entitled as always, to his own opinion. Today I was talking to a very short sighted friend who could not thank me enough for recommending the Kindle to her. Because she can adjust the font size she has been able to read more books than she has done for years. Although the page is short in length, it is no bother to click on to the next one. Yesterday, I visited a nearly 90 year old who thinks his Kindle is the next best thing to sliced bread as we say in Yorkshire. #88 26th September 2012, 12:04 AM grasshopper No wonder it was worn out, one of my all time favourites. Perhaps the Beans were not so much happy, as trying to reach freedom #89 26th September 2012, 12:14 AM MisterHobgoblin I think it is wholly inappropriate to report posts just because you disagree with what the poster has said. Even worse to advertise the fact like some kind of public admonishment. I don't like cyberbullying at the best of times but cyberbullying by hiding behind the Mods really is spineless. #90 26th September 2012, 01:11 AM momac Quote: Originally Posted by MisterHobgoblin A bit harsh don't you think MHG? #91 26th September 2012 07:41 AM Romanike They do not yet, fortunately! But don't you think that Sony has applied for the U.S. patent for a reason? You can check on the link I gave. Such technology is under development right now, and it is clearly bound to be introduced to the market in a few years. With unpredictable consequences. #92 26th September 2012 08:00 AM MisterHobgoblin I agree that it is concerning - not least because we are rapidly moving into a world where households can no longer share things like music, games, films, TV programmes and the like. As we move towards e-readers it will become more common that books can no longer be shared. That is a source of great regret. #93 26th September 2012 11:55 AM Ailecornum Ah, MisterHobgoblin, that's where the old model comes in handy. You can load your books on both the old and the new and then lend the older ereader to friends. So far I haven't seen anything forbidding one to lend ereaders to friends. And at the pace technology changes, we'll all have old ones, quick as winking. ;-) #94 26th September 2012 12:15 PM MisterHobgoblin But the point of the article is that technology is being patented to prevent the lending of devices. The product (book, film, music, etc) would be restricted to the user as well as to the device. I do think that's worrying. #95 26th September 2012 12:25 PM megustaleer Uh? Never seen 'pregnant' used in this way before #96 26th September 2012 12:36 PM MisterHobgoblin Soz. Typing on an iPad and the predictive spelling is not kind on typos. I have corrected it to 'prevent'. #97 26th September 2012 12:56 PM Romanike That was the moment that iPad stung you with the microneedle ... #98 26th September 2012 01:02 PM MisterHobgoblin #99 26th September 2012 10:34 PM megustaleer I thought that was probably it - but didn't have the courage of my conviction. #100 27th September 2012 12:55 PM Ailecornum About the lending thing. Yes, I see your point. If it can actually tell who's holding it, that's a bit creepy and definitely several steps too far!!! Sorry, I have trouble on the iPad in viewing a lot of the links here so I tend to skip them unless I have time at work to check them out. In which case I shouldn't comment. #101 4th October 2012 09:34 AM Apple I have come late to this discussion (as usual) and it has evolved and moved on, but I would like to add my point of view on the original question of the thread, if I may. I was totally against e books and Kindles etc. I love books I like to feel books, the physical thing of holding a book and turning the pages, smelling a book (this sounds a little wierd but bare with me!) - I like the smell of books, the paper and that distinct smell of bookshops. I said I would never buy a Kindle or anything like it, BUT I am now quite tempted to do just that, I have a huge collection of classics which I read but not very often they are tatty dog eared second hand paperbacks which I have always been loathed to part with when I have my yearly purge. but space is a big consideration for me, I only have 3 shelves for my books and I am sure my husband begrudges that - he is not a reader and is always complaining about "my damn books" cluttering up the house. So I am thinking that maybe a kindle is not such a bad idea after all as all my classics which take up more than half of my shelf space could then be condensed into a small electronic space, which fits in my handbag. Plus I believe all the classics are free downloads from Amazon, and even ebooks you have to pay for are considerably cheaper than their paper counterpart, and price is always a huge factor for me when it comes to buying books as I am on a tight budget. So in short I am beginning to be swayed in the direction of an e reader in ways I never thought I would be. #102 4th October 2012 09:58 AM Ailecornum Yes, Apple, the compact and highly portable nature of ebooks is very tempting. I still love and buy and fondle REAL books but my ebook collection is growing at a great rate. Might we not find it in our hearts to love both formats? After all, most of us find we can love both hard and paperbacks. ;-) #103 5th October 2012 07:35 AM bobblington I've only just got an e-reader type device and I like it a lot but I don't think it'll ever give me the warm fuzzy feeling a book gives me. #104 5th October 2012 10:01 AM Lectora Most of us would agree that we want to stay with both paper books and our e book reader (Kindle in my case). After searching the other day for my paper hard back copy of Milton's Poems and finding it eventually, I decided it was time it went on the Kindle for handy access. I have no intention of getting rid of my paper copy. I shall do the same with my copy of John Donne's poems. Both the Milton and the Donne have pencilled notes from my student and teaching days. The Delphi Classics series of Complete Works of.... are excellent value (from Amazon) for less than 2 £. They contain articles and illustrations as well as text. I shall add John Donne and John Milton to the Delphi collection on my Kindle. #105 5th October 2012 02:54 PM lunababymoonchild I was reading a sample on my father's tablet this morning and found the backlight too glaring so changed it to night mode. It was amazing. However a short trip through the terms and conditions of buying ebooks from Apple has put me off mightily so I'm still not sure. The iPad is still a touch unweildy for reading novels, though. #106 6th October 2012, 10:55 PM Apple I have been looking at the Kindle, from my research that seems to get the best reviews and from personal recommendations from friends they all seem to say the kindle is best, but I'm still not sure #107 7th October 2012, 07:57 AM tagesmann I have a Kindle keyboard (3rd generation I think) and it is an easy to use ebook reader. I have a friend who has a Sony Reader (his second one) and that is just as user friendly. I don't think there is really much difference between the different readers on the market. It comes down to price, availability of books from different retailers and whether you can borrow books from the library. There are a couple of other threads on BGO where some of these subjects have been discussed. #108 7th October 2012, 12:31 PM Ailecornum I own a Kindle and a Kobo and have used several other ebook readers, but so far not the Sony which I hear is good, but has tended to cost more at least here in Australia. On paper the Nook looks very appealing but it's not available here. I prefer my kobo largely because I find more books I want to read available on ePub. Due to publishing rights, many of the Kindle books cannot be bought in Australia. I suspect the choices are greater for kindle if you live in th US or UK. I agree with tagesmann that most ereaders are much the same and you should choose whichever seems to suit you best. I found most web reviews of the various ereaders fairly reliable and I think it's important to be clear about which are the most important features for you and then find your price bracket. And enjoy! #109 7th October 2012, 08:12 PM lunababymoonchild If I may suggest, Apple, you can find reviews of Amazon's Kindle in Youtube. #110 10th October 2012, 08:36 AM Apple Thanks Luna (and everyone else for your comments) IF I do get one it will probably be a Kindle I just can't bring myself after resisting and making comments like "I will never buy an e reader" to be actually considering doing just that. #111 10th October 2012, 11:27 AM Ailecornum Don't worry Apple, people often have very short memories about such things, especially if the technology becomes commonplace. #112 22nd October 2012, 11:20 AM Athena Physical paper books, all the way. It just feels much better. I don't have an e-reader (I did buy some ebooks), I know some people who do though and have held theirs. I much prefer to have a book in my hand and not stare at a screen to read a whole book. I don't mind looking at a screen when I'm using my computer, not at all, but I just prefer to have a book in my hand. There is also something to be said for seeing them on your shelf as opposed to just seeing files on your computer or titles on your ereader. For now it's good that both options are available for people to use, but I'm worried that at some point there won't be any more real books for sale. We'll have to buy an ereader and ebooks to read new stories. Already there are a few authors who only publish their book digitally. #113 23rd October 2012, 09:39 AM Romanike One good reason to stay away from e-books: http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/ki...mazon-dele.html I wonder whether "Fahrenheit 451" was among the deleted contents. #114 23rd October 2012, 11:05 AM lunababymoonchild So, they don't mind disrespecting Amazon on their website whilst also advertising Audible, which is Amazon's audio books section. Presumably Amazon don't just suddenly delete yer audiobooks as well, then. #115 23rd October 2012, 11:54 AM Romanike Are you surprised? On an American TV channel, I once watched a rerun of Carl Sagan's "Cosmos", the final episode in which he displays the prospects and consequences of global nuclear war so profoundly, and every ten minutes, the show was interrupted by a commercial: "JOIN THE U.S. ARMY! BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE !!!!!" #116 23rd October 2012, 12:11 PM nonsuch I share some of the sentiments regarding ebooks - that they are not the same as having and holding a 'real book' etc, but they have other useful functions: quick reference, handy format for travelling etc. I don't think the paper book is in danger yet of dying out. Sometimes I check a sample on my Kindle before buying 'the real thing,' and then I say 'Thank God I didn't buy that one!' Good old ebooks. As for spelling dictionaries I use the Kindle all the time. No more ploughing through the OED for a recherche word. #117 25th October 2012, 12:50 PM Romanike Follow up: http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/si...books/index.htm Contact the customer service? Well, that's what she did. Several times. A German website points out that according to Amazon's house rules, you never buy an e-book from them. You simply buy a licence for use, which can be revoked any time for no specific reason. #118 9th November 2012, 03:45 PM Lectora Whenever I have had to contact Amazon's Kindle service, I have always had the help I needed - swiftly and with courtesy. I always hesitate a little about promoting Project Gutenberg on BGO because of the support BGO receives from Amazon. However, when I check the classics and pre-1922 copyright classics I have on the Kindle a good half are freebies from Gutenberg. These include a sizeable collection of non fiction, poetry and plays. Sometimes, Gutenberg has for free a book for which one has to pay on Amazon, or it may have a book not included as a single copy in an author's collection on Amazon, for example, The Dead Secret by Wilkins Collins. The free ebook service provided by Gutenberg alone makes having a Kindle very worthwhile. It depends of course on whether or not you value a free ebook service or which books you want to read or re-read. ([Posts 119 and 120 are missing) #121 29th November 2012, 05:05 PM Grammath That cover's hideous. Glad I won't have to look at it on my Kindle... #122 29th November 2012, 07:44 PM Romanike Another cultural bias, momac? For any German to whom I passed this quote had at once the same association. #123 29th November 2012, 08:14 PM lunababymoonchild I assumed the same postive connotations as Momac when I heard it. #124 30th November 2012, 01:39 PM nonsuch I agree, Momac. ebooks are great for reading in bed, for sampling, but not for keeping and admiring from a distance. For 'tactile' readers they may be less than endearing. #125 30th November 2012, 01:54 PM momac I'm not sure about cultural bias but then different backgrounds do produce different interpretations I suppose. #126 30th November 2012, 04:18 PM momac Just to add to previous post - what cultural bias do you think that I have? I puzzled over this one at breakfast and wondered if you meant it in a negative way? #127 30th November 2012, 04:46 PM Romanike A cultural bias insofar as luckily you do not have any historical experience with burning books. That's why "to light a fire" in connection with books may have different connotations for you than it has for (some of) us on the other side of the Channel. BTW, many Germans have no idea how Amazon's product is correctly pronounced. A frequently heard phrase over here is, 'No, it's not KINDEL, it's KAYNDEL. Because it's English, you know.' "Barnes & Noble Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires" https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121126/18084721154/barnes-noble-decides-that-purchased-ebooks-are-only-yours-until-your-credit-card-expires.shtml #128 30th November 2012, 05:31 PM momac Romanike: I don't know for sure how Kindle is pronouced in the UK but I suspect it is the same as Canada - KINDEL - no "a" sound in it but probably another member of the forum who lives in the UK could probably say for sure. I was just questioning the use of "cultural bias" which I was linking with "cultural prejudice". Sorry if I made the wrong inference. #129 30th November 2012, 06:09 PM tagesmann I say KINDEL as well. (I am NOT from Yorkshire... I am a southerner). from thefreedictionary.com kin·dle 1 (kndl) v. kin·dled, kin·dling, kin·dles v.tr. 1. a. To build or fuel (a fire). b. To set fire to; ignite. 2. To cause to glow; light up: The sunset kindled the skies. 3. To arouse (an emotion, for example): "No spark had yet kindled in him an intellectual passion" (George Eliot). v.intr. 1. To catch fire; burst into flame. 2. To become bright; glow. 3. To become inflamed. 4. To be stirred up; rise. [Middle English kindelen (influenced by kindelen, to give birth to, cause), probably from Old Norse kynda.] Which I guess shows that although nowadays kindle most often refers to fires it can be and is used for a descriptive/abstract purposes; it's origin looks like it is from the latter usage. #130 1st December 2012, 08:10 AM Athena Well I know some people in Britain, specifically my boyfriend's British. His mum has a Kindle, and I think they say KINDEL. I can't speak for all British people, but this British family pronounces it KINDEL if I remember correctly. On another note, while I'm not interested in ebooks, the Kindle book prices for UK are quite good most of the time and there's some books only on Kindle and not in paperback, I'd be tempted to buy a one and some books on it if I was allowed to browse the UK store (which I'm not, I'd have to pay much higher prices here from the Netherlands). But I prefer physical books anyway. #131 1st December 2012, 11:14 AM lunababymoonchild I don't think that it needs to be either/or. If you fancy a Kindle buy one, if not don't. You can always buy paper books in addition to your Kindle, although I don't really see the point in that and the fact that the books I want to read don't appear to be on Kindle is what is holding me back. I do know what it's like to have sore hands and be unable to hold the book of your choice so if it comes to a choice between a Kindle and not reading at all then I'll be buying a Kindle. Like everything else it's personal choice based on personal taste. I also don't think that there's an issue with the name. Amazon are an American company and I found a link that will let you hear how they pronounce it : American Kindle Pronounciation which is how I say it. Book burning was done in 1933 by the Nazis in Germany and I'm guessing wasn't taken into consideration when Amazon came up with the name. #132 1st December 2012, 11:54 AM Romanike OTOH, their notorious issue with "1984", among all possible books ... Clearly, many Germans think "Kindle" should be pronounced like "kind". English pronunciation "rules" or rather "vague hints to be ignored" often leave us entirely speechless, you know. Just mention the case of "t(h)(o)®ough" for a good laugh ... #133 1st December 2012, 12:06 PM Minxminnie Having been sceptical about ebook readers, I have now downloaded the kindle app onto my new tablet. I have downloaded a free book, but not actually bought any yet. I'm most interested in books with colour, like recipe books or travel guides, rather than fiction, and there doesn't seem to be much that appeals to me. But I am open-minded about it - like Luna, I think it's a very personal thing, and there's no "right answer". I'm an English teacher, and many of our kids have Kindles. I encourgage them to read on them and ipods. Interestingly, I recently talked to my senior class about this. They're a mixed bunch of bright 16yo "digital natives", and I asked how many had a Kindle. Not one, no-one wants one, and they all had a strong preference for "proper books". I was amazed. #134 1st December 2012, 02:26 PM megustaleer Recently on Radio4 (possibly last Sunday's "Children's Book Special" edition of Open Book some junior-school-aged children were talking about books, and several of them said they preferred 'real' books to e-books, that they liked the feel and smell of them. I don't think any of them expressed a preference for e-books, even if they had one. #135 1st December 2012, 03:57 PM momac That's encouraging news. Looking at a screen with very little personality isn't quite the same as holding a book but for me the Kindle is more convenient. Maybe there are Kindles available now that have a bit more to them rather than the greyish background and the black text, however, until my current Kindle gives up the ghost I'll stay with it. I have a 'real' book right now, an English mystery in a rural setting and the book is small enough that it's not cumbersome to hold and the cover has a rural scene on it which is very nice. #136 1st December 2012, 04:06 PM tagesmann I think these types of books will suit being reinvented for tablets rather than merely converted to ebook format. They lend themselves to something much more interactive. For example, one of the biggest sellers on the iPad is "The Elements" which was originally a physical book but is so much more on the iPad. See http://www.touchpress.com/titles/theelements/ #137 1st December 2012, 07:06 PM lunababymoonchild Thanks for the link Tag, my father has an iPad and is looking for exactly this type of thing.