Are you fed up with the fantasy clichés?

[Grammath]

I used to read quite a bit of fantasy in my teens. I think the reason I stopped was partly the commitment reading multi-volume epics represents, but mainly because I was because I was getting increasingly bored with the similarlities between the worlds most authors created.

In a genre with such potential for diversity and imagination, why do so many writers create a world of kings, magicians, warriors and peasants, with rural and mediaeval technology, where either there are a lot of battles and duels or a small band go on a quest for some valuable artefact? Why do elves, faeries, dwarves, multiple gods and their ilk seem to populate so many of these worlds? Tolkien has a lot to answer for.

I've started reading The Dark Tower this year and I've found it refreshing because King doesn't stick rigidly to the formula. Admittedly, he has a small group on a quest, but his world is different to the fantasy norm and the sequences set in the reality we live add the sequence's originality.

Also, one of my favourite reads of of last year was "Perdido Street Station" by China Miéville, a tale of drugs, art, corrupt politics, elaborate science, organised crime and inter-species sex set in the filthy and crumbling city of New Crobuzon (imagine a deadly serious Ankh-Morpork), a world which appealed to the noir crime writing fan in me. Again, a very different world populated by a wide variety of beings (intelligent walking cacti, anyone?).

Basically, what I'm asking is can anyone recommend similar kinds of books that don't follow the fantasy clichés? And is anyone else as tired of these clichés as I am?

[My Friend Jack]

Can't disagree with you on this, G. I enjoyed David Eddings' books about Garion, but found his Sparrowhawk books a bit - well - naff. I've become very selective about what I read, and somehow I've never managed to finish a Tolkien.

I enjoyed Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger books, which are somewhat tongue-in-cheek, although rather clever. It's 18 years since I read the first two - don't know if I'd enjoy them as much now.

I'm enjoying the Dark Tower series hugely. I've said before that I consider King to be more a sci-fi / fantasy writer than horror, and he's always original.

I have said before that I read more fantasy than any other genre, but like you, I'm very wary of books that are clones of Tolkien. Robert Jordan's books are OK, but I wish he'd hurry up and finish, so I can start all over again and read them right the way through.

[ChrisG]

Have you tried the series by Julian May? 'The Saga of the Pliocene Exile' and the 'Galactic Milieu' series are very good and different.

[Sara]

Try Weaveworld by Clive Barker. It's one of the most original fanatsy books I've read. It does have some cliché elements but they are used in very weird ways.

I completely agree with you by the way. It's one of the reasons I hate Harry Potter, the characters are so clichéd and the story has been done many times before, even in books that aren't fantasy. There's no originality in many fantasy stories that I've read recently.

[keanea]

Absolutely agree, I alluded to this problem in my post to the "What draws you to the fantasy thread".

For originality in this genre I would recommend Guy Gavriel Kay's various works, it took a few months to pick up a book, any book after reading Tigana and both of the Sarantium series. As for Robert Jordan don't get me started on him... when will he ever finish the series, may be he's thinking of the dollars? I gave up after book 7 and gave them all to the local charity shop.

As a reader of fantasy for a long time some of the 'younger' / newer readers need to be aware of the problems writers such as Tolkein and Donaldson caused for any writer after them, they just about invented the so called cliches so don't dismiss them too easily.

A tip for Tolkein forget the introduction/ prelude to The Fellowship of the Ring start at Chapter One, finish all three then re-read the intro it certainly helped me.

[Darkstar]

I find reading a lot of older work interesting - things like George MacDonald's The Princess and the Goblins. You see where a lot of the cliches come from.

MFJ, I remember the Spellsinger books (or some of them at least) I remember enjoying them when they first came out.

I loathe Tolkien clones too, but then it's a successful format and will almost walk out the bookshop door on its own, so I can see why people write it. For originality however, I have to recommend Johnathan Strange and Mr Norrell by Susannah Clarke. Absolutely brilliant.

[Elfstar]

But as it says in another thread there are only a few plots.........
Weaveworld was good, just started Imajica, Abarat was different too,
Anything about dragons is cool and although they are intended for children I really enjoyed Eoin Colfer's Artemis Fowl books..now there's a different take on fairies!!
Having said that I love LOTR and have done since I first read it....many years ago

[lucyb]

I would have to say that one of my favourite authors is David Gemmell, probably because no character is ever too precious to be bumped off. And I think I did LOTR the wrong way round. I tried to read it when I was eleven and didn't finish it and only returned to it after another twenty years having read many other fantasy authors in the meantime. Which, of course meant that most of the characters read like stereotypes. Unfair but true.

[My Friend Jack]

ChrisG - yes, I read Julian May's books when they first appeared - ulp! - more than 20 years ago. Very entertaining.

[ChrisG]

Don't feel bad, MFJ, that's when I first read them, too! :eek: Have re-read them since because they are just so good.

[Viccie]

By Diana Wynne Jones, very funny and essential reading for anyone who's had it up to here with fantasy cliches. DWJ is quite often compared to JK Rowling - her books are nothing like Harry Potter, much more complex and orignal. Also very funny, paerticulaly Howl's Moving Castle and The dark Lord of Derkholm which casts more than a few snooks att he fantasy genre.
A word of warning about The Tough Guide, don't read it with your mouth full unless you're particulary fond of the nose trick.

[kridabo]

My brother started me on fantasy books with his collection of Dragonlance books. While some can be entertaining, after a while everything started to sound the same. Now I have a tendency to see out books and authors that at least have a go in good faith at coming up with something original. Some of my favourite authors are:

K. J. Parker - wrote two trilogies, The Scavenger Trilogy, and the Fencer trilogy (of the two the Scavenger trilogy was my favourite but the Fencer trilogy had some very interesting takes on law and order ;) )

Steven Erikson - multiple volumes, starting with Gardens of the Moon, telling tales of the Malazan Book of the Fallen. There's quite a bit of militant action in them but definately no adherence to the 'boy becomes all powerful sorcerer learns how to fly dragons searches out all powerful object and saves the world' mentality.

Jaqueline Carey - Kushiel's Dart, Kushiel's Chosen and Kushiel's Avatar. Flew through her trilogy in a week. NOT for younger readers though. And a word of caution - her newest book (Banewreaker I believe) is NOTHING like her first trilogy.

I think that's all I have to add... Hope somebody finds it remotely helpful :)

[sunny]

Hi there,

I have to agree, unless you are new to Fantasy, in which case, provided it is well written, it can be a joy. However after you have read several authors works and noted how similar the formula is you can almost predict the plot.

My latest Fantasy fave is Jim Butcher's Dresden series, and I am now going to wax lyrical about it for far too long, you have been warned, lol!

The protaganist is a detective, (and a wizard) and treads a thin line between good and evil. As the series progresses he sometimes crosses it. Set in Chicago with cops, an organised crime boss, a reporter, coroner, and other innocent and not so innocent humans, it also has the world of Fae, called the NeverNever, alongside it. There are many of the usual Fantasy characters but often with a twist - vampires of varying degrees of evil some bordering on good, sorcerers, wizards, succubae (sp?), zombies, spirits, demons, fairies (some who like pizza), werewolves, humans who become wolves and wolves who become human and some monster versions of a werewolf (loup garou), monsters, plant monsters....

Oh and a character called Sue in his most recent book (who I won't spoil you by telling you what she is), then there is the book in which Harry Dresden is called to investigate death threats on an adult film set. Then there is of course his not so trusty sidekick, romance book crazy, spirit guide/friend (?) that lives in a human skull on his bookshelf, called Bob. As well as another friend Michael, a Knight of the Cross who has a wife (who doesn't like the trouble our hero drags hubby into) and kids. There is action, humour, drama etc. (You get the idea I kinda like these books?). The writing improves with each book in the series.

OK I'll stop now, but lets just say I like this writer almost as much as I like pTerry Pratchett. I'm going, I'm going...

~ sunny

[My Friend Jack]

I like the sound of that - will keep an eye out for it. What's the title of the first in the series?

[sunny]

The first in the series is called Storm Front, happy reading! :)

[Amanda Grange]

Mythago Wood by Robert Holdstock is a different type of fantasy. It's much closer to Alan Garner, say, than Tolkien.

This is the blurb:
The mystery of Ryhope Wood had obsessed George Huxley to the point of madness. The strange manifestations which haunted him suggested that this last fragment of primeval forest was inhabited by animals long believed to be extinct, and figures of ancient myths. Now Huxley is dead, and his sons take up his life's work. What they find inside Mythago Wood is a perilous world far more strange than anything they could have imagined . . .

It won the World Fantasy Award.
Alan Garner's quote is, 'A new expression of the British genius for true fantasy.'

Opening lines

Edward -
You must come back to the Lodge. Please don't delay for even an hour! I have discovered a fourth pathway into the deeper zones of the wood.

[thischarmingmanc]

I grew up reading fantasy and understand the point being made very well.

I think the issue is lack of imagination in fantasy writers and agreement on a shard narrative, I also think RPG's and ubiquitous D& D created the dreadful thing i call default fantasy.

It also part of the spirit of the age, new agism has become a meaningless , compression on incompatible ideas, in mess that bears to character or structure which makes it either distinct or functional.

Fantasy worlds suffer from this malaise.

[Wyrdskein]

Couldn't agree more about the Mythago Wood series of books. Completely gripping and so well written. I am also a Gemmell fan but this may appeal to the traditionalist in me - although I think his characters are rather more interesting than most; but the person I would recommend for anyone bored with fantasy is Michael Moorcock. I'll plug his books all day long. Try the Von Bek books in particular.

[Apple]

I feel a little self conscious posting on this thread, as I am really new to the fantasy genre and basically don't have a clue what I am talking about, but I have pcked up a few authors who I have picked up and put down a few times when I have been browsing in library's and bookshops. My entire fantasy genre exploits have been quite predictable up to now, (and it seems authors/books which seem to have been given a not totally positive response!) I loved the Harry Potter series, it was these books which brought me back to reading after a long break, I love Lord of the Rings but I think that The Hobbit is better, and my thoughts on Charlaine Harris series of books about Sookie Stackhouse have been made loud and clear on another thread, and I am currently reading her series of books about Harper Connelly the girl who after being struck by lightening can find dead bodies and knows how they died. I have dabbled with Terry Pratchett and found him to be highly entertaining, Mort was one of the funniest books I have ever read!

[littlerobot]

Being new to the fantasy genre is the best way to experience it; as previously mentioned once you've read into it in any depth things do start to ring annoyingly similar. I read The Lord of the Rings when I was 9 and have a long standing affection for it, so I'm not impressed by the numerous clones of Tolkien's world that are floating around now. It's ironic really because fantasy should be the most diverse and creative genre there is but in reality it's one of the most contrived.

I did try reading several authors of fantasy but I just lost patience with them, especially Robert Jordan whose writing is good but it's just getting ridiculous waiting for a conclusion. I stick with Terry Pratchett these days :)

[bloodynibbler]

I've been reading fantasy genre since I was very young--20+ years now--and I got fed up by those cliches several years ago, and now tread carefully through new stories, with an eye towards avoiding those cliches.

Blaming Tolkien and Donaldson for the state of the genre today...well, I read Donaldson fairly early and liked it, but read Tolkien much later, after reading the stuff that followed in his vein (such as Dennis McKiernan), and hated all over it. It was so predictable and simplistic. My exact thought at the time was "I've seen this done before, and better." Nothing turns me off of a new story faster than a review comparing it to Tolkien ;) The same stuff, but your expectations are shaped by experience, and I probably would've liked Tolkien more if I wasn't, not only comparing it to similar works, but to works that were directly inspired by Tolkien-readers, and therefore likely took his work with the intention of /improving/ upon it. Yeah, definitely should've read them in the order of creation.

Anyway, isn't the prevalence of cliches the fault of the publishers that think "Tolkien is what sells, so we'll only print stuff that's like Tolkien"? Because I find a lot of good stuff outside of bookstores, not on the shelves--writers self-publishing the stuff that big-name publishers won't bother supporting.

[Hazel]

Anyway, isn't the prevalence of cliches the fault of the publishers that think "Tolkien is what sells, so we'll only print stuff that's like Tolkien"? Well, that's what they are doing now in the CYA market - more of the teen vamp stuff please! Write all your books like that! Market them in black covers and red motifs!

[A_J_Lath]

Mythago Wood is the only book I've ever read that I would describe as gorgeous. I know that sounds a bit over the top ... but it just is.

Anyone who has read it and liked it will know precisely what I mean.

Mythago Wood by Robert Holdstock is a different type of fantasy. It's much closer to Alan Garner, say, than Tolkien.

This is the blurb:
The mystery of Ryhope Wood had obsessed George Huxley to the point of madness. The strange manifestations which haunted him suggested that this last fragment of primeval forest was inhabited by animals long believed to be extinct, and figures of ancient myths. Now Huxley is dead, and his sons take up his life's work. What they find inside Mythago Wood is a perilous world far more strange than anything they could have imagined . . .

It won the World Fantasy Award.
Alan Garner's quote is, 'A new expression of the British genius for true fantasy.'

Opening lines

Edward -
You must come back to the Lodge. Please don't delay for even an hour! I have discovered a fourth pathway into the deeper zones of the wood.

[Jeremy DEagle]

I enjoyed Mythago Wood but the follow up was just too wierd to follow- it put me off reading the rest of the series.

[A_J_Lath]

Ah, that would be Lavondyss (or something) wouldn't it? Not had the pleasure myself - though judging by the blurbs I've read, it does indeed seem a bit ... different.

RIP Mr Holdstock, in any case.

[arewenearlythere]

Aren't fantasy cliches forcing more and more originality from today's authors?

[Leanna]

I have been a die hard fantasy fan for a number of years now, I began when I first read Harry Potter aged 7 and havent stopped since. I have noticed that I do come across the same similar stuff. With Eddings I think the point is that it is Cliche, I find it almost like a parody of the fantast genre. I would agree that a lot of it is from tolkin, although i have tried to read LOTR, I have seen the films way to many times. I would say 3/4 of the books I have read have links to tolkin, but to be honest with you, authors pick of ideas from everywhere and tolkien has become part of our culture now. However there are obviously books that are not cliched - Brandon Sanderholt ? Mistborn, Trudi Canavan, Ursula le Guin, Stravagnaza, Terry Goodkind, William Nicholson. Anyway that's my take on it, besides sometimes cliched books are good too.

[Valr]

That's a good point. A lot of people like cliches!
I'm a fan of Raymond Feist myself and think he does it better than anyone else.

[The Collector]

I confess to being a sort of virgin in the Forum as this is only my second post - OK so I have a different slant on the concept of virginity - but this thread has intrigued me a little.

Were Tolkein and Donaldson et al the originators of the fantasy genre? I don't think that this necessarily follows. Tolkein as is well documented was steeped in Old English and Scandinavian history and mythology and more. All the language of the Riders of Rohan to pick an example, is Old English based and Anglo Saxon (as is the culture) even if they are expert horsemen like their erstwhile vanquishers, the Normans. Let's face it 'Ent' is no more than 'Giant' in Old English.

How far back does fantasy really go? Elves, wizards, witchcraft, giants, goblins and so on go back well into pre-history passing on route writers of considerable pedigree such as Shelley, Shakespeare and Dante Alighieri to name but three that jump immediately to mind.OK so some of these may have believed that the tales were true or partially true but does that make them any less fantasy? No I think it does not.

So when we talk of cliches is it really surprising, given that there are only a finite number of monkeys tapping at keyboards or, may the gods forbid, scribbling on paper or parchment or even vellum with ink, crayon,chalk or paint. Not to mention our distant forbears in the caves of prehistoric France.

Surely the cliches are inevitable but what is actually amiss is the use of the weary formula in the writing. That is where it all starts to get boring. Good and evil, sword and sorcery and all that stuff. Tolkein had it in spades : Donaldson with his rapist anti hero does the same but with attitude. Ursula Le Guinn, Robert Jordan, Terry Goodkind , Eddings, Garner, and a whole heap more. It's all the same but with different leit motifs. I'm not actually knocking their achievements (even if I cannot abide some of the stuff that I have read).It's just that it is now a tired genre looking for innovation. This is where we need someone to come along with a different view and open up a new vein.

Until that happens I have decided to write my own. In that way I can sit down at my pc, open up MS Word and just carry on writing down the pictures in my head. And sadly, my world is both medieval amd classical but at least there are no elves and its not a fight between good and evil! I probably won't save the planet and frankly at my age I don't care if I don't get the girl.