Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen

[Harriet]

I've seen the BBC adaptation about 3 times, but each time I try to read the book I get distracted about half-way through, so I've read the first half about 4 times, but I've never actually finished it. From what I've read though, I think the BBC adaptation is really well done (I've seen old + new) and does the book justice (the old one more, I think).

[Lady Lazarus]

I've started this book a couple of times, but have never made it all the way through (I'm ashamed to say!)... not the biggest fan of period drama on tv either.. aah maybe one day I'll actually finish the thing!

[BrumB]

Harriet and Lady Lazarus - you don't know what you are missing! It might help to try not to think of it as period drama. In some ways the film and tv versions do the book an injustice because they concentrate too much on romance and obvious humour. For me the joy of Pride and Prejudice lies in its gentle and perceptive irony. I must have read it 20 times and each time come away with something new. I do hope you try again and come to enjoy it as much as I do. Have you see the Bollywood Bride and Prejudice?

[Harriet]

Have you see the Bollywood Bride and Prejudice?

Nooooo it looks so stupid and a rubbishy take on the original plot.

[BrumB]

I take your point but I thought it was fun!

[Harriet]

I dunno I'll probably see it sometime when it comes out to rent. Have you seen they've made a modern-day version of P&P? www.prideprejudice.com

[Elizabeth Bennet]

I agree with BrumB I think your missing out. I started out watching the 95? BBC adaptation and fell in love with it. Then read the novel, which I loved even more. I’ve read all Austen’s novels many times, they are so clever and I love the way the characters keep popping up in my life often in the most unexpected places. I think its Jane Austen’s humour that makes me read them time and again and her exact observations of life. Maybe if you cant stick with P&P you might like to try Persuasion - its every bit as good as P&P but as the story is less well known and the adaptation less popular it can be enjoyed in its own right without an adaptation getting in the way. In some ways it think the P&P adaptations may be too good and interfere with the way the book is read. I’ve seen Bride and Prejudice, couldn’t resist, although I expected to hate it for ruining a perfectly good story. I was surprised to really enjoy it. Ok so it wasn’t really brain food but it was amusing. I haven’t seen the modern take on it.

[Harriet]

I've tried to read 'Emma', but like Pride and Prejudice I got distracted about halfway through. I found that when I was reading them I had to keep reading, but if I put them down I didn't feel compelled to pick them back up.

[Kate Allan]

I've just submitted this to a poll on behalf of the Romantic Novelists Association as one of my top 5 romantic novels ever!

It's Darcy. And how he changes from how he see him at first to the declarations of love he stoops to at the end of the story.

[Carly]

Yeah I agree with BrumB, you don't know what you're missing if you don't read the book! Jane Austen is a sarcastic bitter old witch and I love her! She's soo funny, she hides so many little bitchy remarks in every chapter you can't even pick them all up in the first reading - the more you read of her work the more you grow to love her. It's not for everyone though, her novels aren't always a simple read, and even I struggled with Emma in places, but it's really worth it to read them. Just accept it's going to be a slow read and enjoy...! If you try to skim bits just to read it quickly you'll not pick up on the wry, observational humour and without that there's no point.

[BrumB]

I've just submitted this to a poll on behalf of the Romantic Novelists Association as one of my top 5 romantic novels ever!

It's Darcy. And how he changes from how he see him at first to the declarations of love he stoops to at the end of the story.

I'm more inclined to Carly's view that Jane Austen was a wicked witch. I think the joy of P & P is the way the different characters in their own ways accept the realities of their world - no less from Charlotte and Mr Collins to Elizabeth and Mr Darcy. To me the least interesting couple are the most 'romantic' Jane and Mr Bingley.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Harriet, you get distracted becasue you are a silly imbecile. How can you say you can't be bothered to read one of the greatest books of all time. (Just joing. You aren't an idiot. Well maybe you are... :D ) Mr Darcy is shown well in the film, but he is easier to fall in love with in the book. Plus in the film Elizabeth is SO NOT how I imagined her.

[Cathy]

Much as I love the book, Darcy just doesn't have the passion what Colin Firth gives it in the BBC adaptation. Its quite frightening how cold the 'romantic heroes' of Austen are, I mean who could ever fall for Mr Knightly or Edmund Betram?

I think Austen is a lot darker than she is given credit for, and the adaptations maybe romanticise them more for a modern taste, which is a useful way to get into them but can make them a bit jarring.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I found Darcy in the book so good! And this when I hadn't seen the BBC adaptation, and you can imagine him much better. TV ruins imagination, look at LOTR. I can't believe they're making a new P&P. It can never EVER out do the BBC. I can't imagine another Darcy, even if they are gorgeous they will never come close to Colin.

[Harriet]

Colin was actually the second Mr Darcy, the original drama adaptation came out a few years ago....I bought it off ebay agesssssssssss ago but haven't got round to watching it yet.....

[clur100]

i have never been a lover of the classics and have always tended to be easily distracted by a passing fly, or the length of my finger nails or whatever :p , they are just so blah blah descriptions endless superficial conversations blah blah. BUT i have recently read and enjoyed P+P :) . maybe it is because i am older and more mellow...

... now i am looking forward to reading other classics which i previously haven't been bothered with. maybe certain books you have to grow into?

[Cathy]

I think Colin Firth was actually the 3rd Darcy, to be really picky, I'm not sure when the first one came out but I think it was the 40s.

Speaking from a completely biased point of view and never actually having seen any of the other adaptations, I don't feel anyone could replace the 1995 version.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Even though there may have been other Darcy's, none of them could even come close to Colin. :o I LOVE HIM! With the exception of George Clooney. The church I go tap dancing at (I discovered it after watching singing in the rain) was where BJD 2 was shot, and Colin Firth acted there! Me and Harriet have proclaimed it holy ground! ;)

[Jassie]

I just bought the quiz book (saddo that I am) "So you think you know Jane Austen?" In my case it might be termed as.... "Well scraping the bottom of the barrel as you've bought almost all Jane Austen related books".
Anyway - I was leafing through the questions and one of them raised a point I'd never really considered before...

Why does Wickam elope with Lydia...?

It probably has crossed my mind fleetingly but I can't say I'd ever given it too much thought... but with no prospects and the fact she has friends to protect her (albeit a little late) why does he? And is elope the right word.. according to where they end up in London rather than dashing up to Gretna Green, elope might be Lydia's word for it, but was it Wickhams?

any views?

If anyone's interested I can compile a little quiz later on, from the book, for a bit of Austen literary fun... how well DO you know Jane Austen?

[Starry]

Why does Wickam elope with Lydia...?

Well my view on this - and it might be mentioned in passing in the book, I can't remember now - is that Wickham had no intention of marrying Lydia, but needed to leave Brighton in a bit of a hurry and wanted a bit of company, so to speak, while he was hiding out from his creditors in London. He sweet-talked Lydia into accompanying him with promises of marriage, but it probably didn't take much!

A Jane Austen quiz book would be just the thing I would pick up as well, so I guess that makes me a saddo too. :eek:

[Kate Allan]

I always wondered whether Wickham knew that Darcy had interfered in Bingly and Jane and somehow wanted some small measure of revenge on Darcy and therefore the prospect of eloping with Jane's sister seemed a good idea at the time.

[megustaleer]

I'm not a JA "fan", insomuch as I have read and enjoyed some of her books, but not repeatedly, and don't know them off by heart! (I don't even know which story goes with which title without going to look at the book:o)

Wickham and Lydia? Well, P&P being one that I have read/seen more than once, I never considered it an elopement in the sense of running away to get married . Just Wickham taking advantage of the silly girl who has been throwing herself at him to provide him with a few 'comforts' while he lies low.

Colin Firth? Never knew what all the fuss was about. He does nothing for me at all, wet shirt or dry! Now the Darcy in my head....!!! :D :D :D

[Jassie]

Colin Firth? Never knew what all the fuss was about. He does nothing for me at all, wet shirt or dry! Now the Darcy in my head....!!! :D :D :D

Coming from a 'fan' of the books and someone who watches the films with intrest, I agree with you Megustaleer. I thought Colin Firth was good as Darcy but not THAT good. I appreciated the six hour adaptation that the BBC did for the fact that it was 6 hours rather than 2 hours of film and as a result didn't leave too much out. I enjoy all the dramatisations of the novels as visual attempts to come near the enjoyment of the novels but - well - yup the Darcy in my head is much better than CF! :)

[Dr. Strangelove]

I hadn't seen the show before i read the book, though I knew Colin Firth played him. My copy of the book has a picture of Mr Darcy on it, so my mind kept switching from Colin to the weird guy. Colin played and excellent Mr Darcy and he was described exactly as in the book. The hair, the broodingess and everything. In the film the double wedding annoyed me. And Lizzie shouldn't have given in!

[donnae]

Colin Firth wasn't my ideal Darcy, but I have to say he looks a lot better with the sideburns etc, than he does in real life! The BBC version was a very good adaptation of the book, and I await the new film version with interest. I do love Austen's stories.

Such a shame that there are so few. P&P used to be my favourite, but I think Sense and Sensibility is leading now. I have to admit that until I started studying English at A-level, I had read no Austen at all. We had to read Mansfield Park, and it took me 6 months! Now I love them all, and have read them all countless times. Such a clever lady.

Although her stories were very much of the time, her wit and sarcasm still succeed so well today. I think she is someone that is always worth a second chance.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I'm already dreading the new film. Kiera Knightly can't act, though I admit that she will do well in the role of someone from the Victorian (Or whatever it is) era. The Mr Darcy will be rubbish in comparison to Colin!

[Cathy]

And Lizzie shouldn't have given in!

Do you mean Lizzy shouldn't have married Darcy?!!! :eek: How could you possibly tamper with the perfect romance (which has the added advantage of being associated with the gorgeous Colin Firth ;) )?!?!?!?!

I love the book and I love the adaptation in different ways - I think its fair enough for each generation to see the story afresh, especially when its something people are still reading after 200 years! But I heard the director of the new adaptation describing it as 'a teen flick' which is worrying... it could either be brilliant like Baz Lurman's Romeo and Juliet, or be Clueless in period costume... and don't get me started on Kiera Knightly...!

[Dr. Strangelove]

What I meant is that becasue Lizzie was such a strong character i didn't think it was right for her to go with Darcy. I have only read Jane Eyre apart from P&P out of the classics, but in both (Although I loved the romance) thought they weren't as strong as they had been shwon throughout the book when they went to the men.

[lucyb]

And Lizzie shouldn't have given in!

Doesn't Darcy give in first? I'm afraid I'm another Colin Firth fan and although I love the book, I adore the BBC Series. Just had to buy the DVD as I've worn out the video (sigh).

[Jassie]

Well as I'm a sucker for most things Austen related I will, I think, watch the new P&P with interest as I'm always on the hunt for new material to read and watch regarding the books and Austen so I welcome anyone doing anything most of the time. Having said that though I was put off seeing Bride and Prejudice from the reviews but I think it'll be interesting to see a modern two hour take on P&P to see how they do it. I thought Clueless was amusing but instantly forgetable. The words 'teen flick' do fill me with a little trepidation so I hope I'm proved wrong. Ah well if they don't we'll always have the BBC adaptation. But apart from gimicky spoofs like B&P as mentioned above they haven't done a film of it since Laurence Olivier played Darcy. Now if you want a film to be more untrue to P&P and the historical period you couldn't get a better one, but what a laugh - it's so entertaining I can't help loving it.
I'm looking forward to Matthew Macfayden's Darcy, I've watched him in a number of things, think he's a great actor and so I hope he brings a few interesting elements to such a reticent character. I'll reserve judgement on Miss Knightley but I've seen a few spirited sparks in her acting sometimes which if she brings them to the role will make it entertaining. The one which actually concerns me most is the casting of a young American actress as Lydia who by all accounts has had problems with her accent of course! Finally its all down to the script and the editing as much as the good acting so lets hope that Working Title do justice to the wit of Miss Austen and have a good adaptation with some cracking dialog. Fingers crossed then!!! But hey its just a bit of fun as Austen would agree, I'm sure she would see the humour in the attempts to reproduce her wit and subtle cynicism from page to celluloid.

[Cathy]

What I meant is that becasue Lizzie was such a strong character i didn't think it was right for her to go with Darcy. I have only read Jane Eyre apart from P&P out of the classics, but in both (Although I loved the romance) thought they weren't as strong as they had been shwon throughout the book when they went to the men.

I was about to write another gushing stream of disagreement with you, but perhaps if I give some actual reasons I might have more chance of persuading you!

Lizzy and Darcy are perfect for each other - Lizzy has to be strong so that she doesn't get swallowed up by Darcy's strong character - he needs someone ballsy enough to stand up to him, she needs someone as intelligent as she is, who respects her for her character not just her looks/breeding ability! And this is brought out much more in the book than the film, this is exactly why Darcy is attracted to her - he doesn't fancy her at first sight at the ball in Meryton, it is when he discovers she is not afraid of him. And she doesn't 'give in', as she doesn't accept him at first, it is only when she discovers his true character. Well, this point can be argued, but anyway, can you imagine her married to Mr Collins? She had to marry for money, but she achieved a fairy-tale balance that Darcy is a perfect character match for her, and he has loadsa money! ;) Not very PC I know, but very romantic.

And Jane Eyre... well, that's a whole other thread, but in general, I think Jane is shown as strong enough to heal Rochester at the end of the book and she's also strong enough not to be afraid of him.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Why did Mr Darcy have to put on this tough facade? If he was nice and kind etc in his heart why did he have to be outwardly mean? That must have put Lizze off because he is not acting how he is, and even if he is kinda and good if he acts all weirdly around people surely she wouldn't want to be with him?

[Cathy]

Apart from the fact it makes a good story (I think Jane Austen said, it had to be as believable that he was absolutely wrong for Lizzy in the beginning, as it is believable they are perfect for each other in the end)...

There seems to be a debate over whether is not Darcy is shy to begin with... i tend to come down on the 'not shy' side... its his pride which gives him a disdainful air, underneath he has good principles.

Jane Eyre is probably more disturbing (though brilliant) as there is something repellant about Rochester. Or Wuthering Heights...those Bronte girls had a real masochistic streak!

[Amanda Grange]

There's a trailer for the new Pride and Prejudice film here (it takes a long time to download if you don't have broadband, so be warned :eek: )

http://www.workingtitlefilms.com/trailers/menu_pride.htm

I didn't like it at first, but it's won me round (yes, sad enough to watch the trailer repeatedly, I'm afraid :D )

Jassie, I'd be interested in a JA quiz. Did you ever get round to doing one, and if so, where is it, please?

[lucyb]

hmm...not at all convinced.Then again, I am a confirmed Colin addict. :rolleyes:

[David]

Mixed views on that. I like the more natural approach: I think too many 'period' films take a very stilted line in terms of characters' manner and action, whereas this production presents a more convincing picture. A family of young girls would have the animation that seems to be apparent here, so we don't fall into the ongoing halcyon days myth that if you were strapped into a corset in a society of careful codes of social interaction you suddenly became a sort of Stepford wife.

I think Donald Sutherland and Brenda Blethyn are inspired choices for Mr & Mrs B, and you just know Judi Dench will be a wonderful Lady C.

I share Lucyb's doubts about Darcy, though. Not because I'm a Colin addict (a 6 month course of Colin substitute cured me of that) but because on the evidence of the trailer Matthew MacFadyen just doesn't seem to have a presence. I do feel sorry for the guy, though, because there's just going to be an endless flood of "Oh, but he's not Colin" from legions of women with tattered copies of The Radio Times Colin edition under their pillows.

My biggest concern, though, is the evidence of script-tampering. Now of course you can't translate a novel to the screen without some tinkering along the way, we all know that, but what I hate is the slipping in of 'funnies' that have nothing to do with Austen. She's funny enough without throwing in double entendres from Collins' pulpit or a footman announcing "Miss Bennet, Miss Bennet, Miss Bennet and errr, Miss Bennet." Ho-de-ho-ho! Leave it alone! I loved the adaptation of Emma but there were a few examples of the same thing in that too.

The only other slight worry... oh God, I hate having to say this... is Keira Knightley. Well of course she is gorgeous (which in itself is a minor problem - I think Jane needs to be the stunner), but I'm not 100% convinced of her acting talents. I don't know that she'll capture Lizzie's subtleties.

There. I've said it, but I feel dirty now. I'm off to take my Keira substitute.
;)

[lucyb]

...but he's not Colin! Actually one of the reasons I like the BBC P&P version is that it did stay fairly close to the original novel, at least in most places and I like my period dramas to be, well, period really. Added to the fact that I'm not Donald Sutherland's biggest fan (although at 5'0" I could be his smallest...), I've only ever seen Keira Knightly in Pirates ofthe Caribbean and I really don't like Matthew McFad...McFeyd...Mc..oh, b*gger it - the guy from spooks - you know who I mean, then it may not turn out to be my most favourite film ever. Probably still watch it though.

And I do not have a tattered old picture of Colin which I lug around with me (mainly because my husband found me a digital version to use as a screensaver - ain't love grand?)

[Amanda Grange]

A lot of people expressed reservations about KK and MM, but general opinion from those who've seen the film say both actors are good, and there are rumours KK might be up for an Oscar. US release date has been put back to Nov from Sept, the rumour being that this will give it a better chance at the Oscars.

Some reviews of P&P here (from an advance screening in Hamburg)

http://www.janeausten.de/filme/ja_p&p05premeng.htm

I'm reserving judgement. Whatever else, it seems to be beautifully shot - with any luck it will do for the UK what LOTR did for NZ :)

[megustaleer]

I've had a quick look at the trailer, and agree that Keira Knightley is far too pretty to be a credible Elizabeth, considering that she is not supposed to be the beauty of the family.

As for Matthew McFadden, I didn't see enough of him to judge him as a Darcy, but he won't have to compete with Colin Firth for my approval, as the much adored Mr Firth does nothing for me whatsoever!!

[David]

there are rumours KK might be up for an Oscar.
Blimey! Well stap me vitals! :eek: Sorry, Keira; I really didn't mean it. My friend made me say it for a dare. ;)

Sounds encouraging, Amanda! You're right, it does look beautifully shot (which is so important for a film, since this is what it can excel in over the small screen adaptations) and the NZ effect would be more than welcome after all the dreadful events in London.

[lucyb]

The reviews do sound promising - maybe I'll be surprised. If so I will return and eat lots of humble pie.

[Amanda Grange]

I agree about KK being too beautiful for the part, in a way, but in another way, I think she's quite boyish, and if the fashion was for curvaceous blondes, then I can see that a KK-style Lizzy might not be thought the beauty of the family.

On the subject of the book, it's recently struck me that P&P seems to have the prototypes of some well loved characters in fiction. Lydia being lectured by her aunt and uncle in London reminds me of Toad being lectured by Badger and Rat. Both of them are un-putdownable (although Toad has a nice line in pretending to be chastened.)

Sir William Lucas seems to be a prototype of Mr Wyse in Mapp and Lucia.

[David]

Now if only we could see Lydia's reaction to being compared with Mr Toad!...
;)

I see what you mean about different types for different times; she won't do much for an empire line dress!

[Cathy]

I can't believe I missed all this activity going on in the P+P thread!!!! OK, I'm a total Colin Firth addict too (except for no Radio Times under the pillow!!! i think my boyfriend would draw the line at that!!!) but I'm also quite excited about this new film...my only, very shallow problem with Matthew Macfayden is he has a really hairy back!!! :eek: We're talking gorilla-like here. I don't know if we're going to see his back in this film if you know its there its sort of off-putting! I'll be trying to figure out if it was Darcy's character which made Firth so appealling or if it was just his own appeal...er...appealling, will MM take on a new...er...appeal...

Apart from that... does the trailer still have the cheesy american voiceover guy? That really puts me off!

I think I might have been dreaming, or did I read somewhere that they change the ending?!?! I hope it was just a bad dream!

[Jassie]

I've decided I'm just going to go with the aim of enjoying it as a good laugh, a low expectation might just be the making of it!
The trailer shows the effort that Working Title have gone to with the shooting; cinematography and costumes will make it a visually interesting take on the Georgian period. It does sound like they didn't think today's cinema goers would get or appreciate JA's satirical dialog though doesn't it. I distinctly heard Lizzie say at one point 'But he's so rich...' & 'perhaps you should practice'. Even in that short clip the clever lines they have cut from Lizzie seem to suggest that they have made her appeal to a contemporary audience, rather than flattering us with more intelligence - did they learn nothing from the sucess worldwide of the BBC one?
Working Title maybe a British firm but their previous sucesses show their eye is firmly on making a hit in the US rather than one faithful to JA; I struggle to understand why both can't be done. You can see the hand the US financiers have had in it just from the trailer. Good actors, good sets and costumes all make bad dialog all the more apparent.

So despite all that I'm going to enjoy it for what it is because I rather they do something than nothing. I've no high expectations - but I will watch ANYTHING period. Maybe they want her to be the 18th C 'Bridget Jones' horror...shriek.

The fashion was for plump, curvy and blond in Georgian England so definately KK as Lizzie would not have been considered a beauty. Rosamund Pike as Jane would have attracted more notice with her features so I have to say I think they got that right despite the fact that I think they've done that inadvertently.

[David]

Maybe they want her to be the 18th C 'Bridget Jones' horror...shriek.

V. bad! Pass the chardonnay.

[Amanda Grange]

For all Firth fans, did you know that the lake scene was originally scripted to have Darcy swimming in the nude (correct for the period) but it was changed as they wanted to show it before the 9 o'clock watershed?

The new film shows the women in late 18th century fashions, for the most part, instead of Empire line gowns, because the director thinks Empire line gowns are ugly. I think they're really flattering :) Thackeray didn't like them either, and when he illustrated Vanity Fair, he dressed his 1814 characters in Victorian costume. :rolleyes:

Mr Bennet is shown as old in the new film because the director (I think it was the director) thought that Mr Bennet couldn't marry until his father died. Not sure why he thought that, but I'm not complaining because I like Donald Sutherland.

[KenFrAtl]

I have read and enjoyed most of Jane Austin's works, along with the Bronte's, Thomas Hardy, Dickens and others. If you are patient with it these writers really know how to develop their characters, as compared to today's books that for the most part, use characters to get you to the action scenes.

I also think that no one used the english language better than these authors. I can read many random sentences and stop to think how long it would take me to compose a sentence as perfect.

Anyway, I am not into romances per se, but I really enjoy these pastoral dramas on many levels.

[Jassie]

For all Firth fans, did you know that the lake scene was originally scripted to have Darcy swimming in the nude (correct for the period) but it was changed as they wanted to show it before the 9 o'clock watershed?


I heard something interesting about this the other day. Talking to a lady who had been to a talk given by Andrew Davies the script writer from the 1995 BBC series at the time. He mentioned he'd wanted Colin Firth to do the scene nude and it was CF himself that put the brakes on. The women in the audience all agreed that it was a typically male thing to think nude was better than tight buckskin and wet shirt! I just think although that scene has merits - it was NOT in the book and so I do have a problem with it for that reason in a purist way.

[Cathy]

You probably noticed or heard already, just in case you didn't, the 1995 series is being repeated on BBc4 this Tuesday (13th) at various times throughout the day starting v.early in the morning! And documentaries about the making of etc. Very frustrated that as I only have 'council telly' I can't watch it (but still won't give in to the corporate machine etc. and buy a freeview box)... the programme 'Drama Connections' on the 13th on BBC 1 is also about P+P: <hyperlink>http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/prog_parse.cgi?FILENAME=20050913/20050913_2235_4223_21858_30</hyperlink>
:)

[David]

Very frustrated that as I only have 'council telly' I can't watch it (but still won't give in to the corporate machine etc. and buy a freeview box)
You're a woman of strong principle, I'm increasingly coming to see, Cathy!

[Jassie]

You probably noticed or heard already, just in case you didn't, the 1995 series is being repeated on BBc4 this Tuesday (13th) at various times throughout the day starting v.early in the morning! And documentaries about the making of etc. Very frustrated that as I only have 'council telly' I can't watch it (but still won't give in to the corporate machine etc. and buy a freeview box)...

I saw the BBC 4 P&P Revisited programme on Tuesday night, but only because I was sleeping on my sister's living room floor - I too only have council telly and even though I catch the odd BBC 4 on on other tv's and enjoy them, I'm holding out and not getting a box too, there's enough repeats and adverts on as it is. It was an quite interesting programme, showing old clips of other adaptations and remarking on how they differ and the miriad of ways P&P can be interpreted. It was just nice to see a programme about Jane Austen and her work, how sad am I.

[Jassie]

A few little quiz questions on how well you all know your P&P in honour of the new film out today, which is a rapid romp with an honourary nod to the book. See which ones you know, post your answers, or not, if you like.
questions are from. So you think you know Jane Austen? by John Sutherland and Deirdre Le Faye.

Easy.

1) Describe with their Autstenish epithet (or characteristic mark) the five Bennet girls, in order of age

2) How old is Charlotte Lucas

3) How much does Wickham estimate that Pemberley is worth?

4) What is Sir William's favourite epithet?

Slightly harder

5) What card-game do Jane and Bingley find they prefer?

6) Who is said to have 'tolerable' teeth, and by whom?

7) What is Mr Bennet's response, on learning of Wickham's elopement with his daughter?

8) What is Mr Collins's favourite recreation

Even harder and occasionlly deductive

9) What is Mrs Bennet's characteristic indisposition, and what do we deduce from it?

10) Why does Lady Catherine disapprove of entails?

11) What should we read into the fact that Lydia is both the youngest and the tallest of the Bennet girls

12) Why has Mr Bingley, who has been living in London, chosen to take a house in rural Hertfordshire.

Interpretive - I give you free rein!

13) What can we reconstruct of Mr and Mrs Bennet's 'back story'?

14) When Darcy makes his remark of Lizzy at the Meryton ball about being 'tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt me...etc' Does he mean to be overheard? Should we perhaps assume the music momentarily stopped? Is he perhaps a little deaf?

15) Why, at Pemberley, does Elizabeth confide Lydia's elopement to Darcy?

16) Why is the proud, cultivated and snobbish Darcy the 'inseparable' friend of Bingley, a man of limited intelligence and no firmness of mind?

points for witty answers!!! Go to it.

[Cathy]

The film skips over quite a lot doesn't it? I was not impressed, but I put the blame on the script rather than the actors. Anyway, Yey, a quiz! OK... my answers to the ones I can guess...

1) Describe with their Autstenish epithet (or characteristic mark) the five Bennet girls, in order of age
Jane - not sure of her age! Must be 21-22? And very sweet tempered.
Lizzy - well, she's not yet one-and-twenty!
Mary - very serious...
Kitty - 'follows wherever Lydia leads'
Lydia - 15 and an outrageous flirt!

2) How old is Charlotte Lucas
27/28?

4) What is Sir William's favourite epithet?
Capital, capital!

6) Who is said to have 'tolerable' teeth, and by whom?
Lizzy, by Caroline.

8) What is Mr Collins's favourite recreation
Being leery!

9) What is Mrs Bennet's characteristic indisposition, and what do we deduce from it?
Her delicate nerves? Perhaps her corset is done up too tight!

14) When Darcy makes his remark of Lizzy at the Meryton ball about being 'tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt me...etc' Does he mean to be overheard? Should we perhaps assume the music momentarily stopped? Is he perhaps a little deaf?
Perhaps he is so used to people pretending they haven't heard him insulting them because he is so important he has unrealistic ideas of how far sound travels? I'm sure he doesn't mean to be heard...

15) Why, at Pemberley, does Elizabeth confide Lydia's elopement to Darcy?
She's in shock! Or maybe because it moves the plot forwards...:D

16) Why is the proud, cultivated and snobbish Darcy the 'inseparable' friend of Bingley, a man of limited intelligence and no firmness of mind?
That is a puzzle...my idea is that he wishes he could be more like Bingley, and that Bingley helps him get along at social occasions! But that's a bit of a 'shy' Darcy interpretation.

[Jassie]

The film skips over quite a lot doesn't it? I was not impressed, but I put the blame on the script rather than the actors.


I agree, I thought it was an entertaining take and none of the actors were bad, except Mr Collins and that was just casting. Why do they persist in making him small.. (poor Tom Hollander, I've sen him in better stuff) Collins is described as a tall man in the book... I suppose its funnier in a way, but then I think tall and thin and ineffectual is just as funny as short. Wouldn't want to be heightist.
It just doesn't work as a two hour film though does it, once its been done so well as a six hour adaptation. The things I did like were the boysterous Meryton public ball, brilliant - I bet it was a bit like that.. a bit of a bun fight. The acting, cinematography and costumes were good it was the script that was the let down. I thought that Keira Knightley did a credible job portraying the funloving, kind and funny aspects of the young lizzy that hadn't been done so much before and bravo to her for not doing a copy of Jennifer Elhe. There we go, never more was the statement at the end of the film truer 'based on a novel by Jane Austen'. Still, I've spent two hours in a worse way.

Answers to the quiz in a few days.. glad someone answered though Cathy. Ta!

[Dr. Strangelove]

I haven't been able to see the film yet, but I really want to. For someone who has, what is Mr Darcy like in it? From the adverts I've seen he looks dreadful compared to Colin Firth, and not at all handsome.

[lucyb]

I found Darcy in the book so good! And this when I hadn't seen the BBC adaptation, and you can imagine him much better. TV ruins imagination, look at LOTR. I can't believe they're making a new P&P. It can never EVER out do the BBC. I can't imagine another Darcy, even if they are gorgeous they will never come close to Colin.

Have just been to see the film. Best description I can give is that the Director read the P&P GCSE pass notes but not the actual book itself - some of the right quotes but no idea how they went together to make up the story. Would probably have been an ok film if I hadn't read the book (many times.) Would say more but I can't remember how to use the spoiler.

And, David, if you're around....he's not Colin! :D

[David]

:rolleyes:

[megustaleer]

I haven't been able to see the film yet, but I really want to. For someone who has, what is Mr Darcy like in it? From the adverts I've seen he looks dreadful compared to Colin Firth, and not at all handsome.

I do not find Colin Firth the slightest bit handsome. He is quite ordinary, and I wouldn't notice him if I bumped into him in the supermarket.

Now, Mr Darcy is another matter, but he lives within the pages of the book, and in my head.

I don't understand why people keep mixing up the two.

Colin Firth is NOT Mr Darcy

[lucyb]

Hmm... this is a difficult one as I do like Colin Firth. Even though I watched the BBC adaption before I read the book, the first time I read it, the Mr Darcy in my head still wasn't Colin but someone conjured up from the pages of the book. However, having watched the BBC adaptation many, many times the mental image I had has changed to incorporate Firth-like qualities. As I've already admitted, I am a Colin fan, but I think the real reason behind the change is that the adaptation was, in the main, was done so faithfully. Nothing said on screen jars strongly enough to break the connection with the written word and the two complement each other. I'm sorry if anything I've posted before has made you think I didn't take the book seriously :o - it's one of my favourites, although I've found it hard to get into other books by the same author.

[David]

I do not find Colin Firth the slightest bit handsome. He is quite ordinary, and I wouldn't notice him if I bumped into him in the supermarket.


Wa-haay! Go Me-eg, go Me-eg; it's your birthday, it's your birthday!

There's hope for womankind yet.

Now I wonder if it's possible to fit those whirling sword doobries (a la Boudica) to the wheels of supermarket trolleys...?
;)

[Cathy]

Colin Firth is NOT Mr Darcy

He is nice though! ;)

[David]

Went to see the film yesterday and I must say I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Obviously it is not what you might describe as wholly authentic in terms of following the book and I've already written before about my dislike of inserting modern 'funnies' into classic adaptations. That said, however, one of the things I liked a great deal about this is that it is more authentic in terms of the period. Liberties with style of dress aside, I loved the fact that there was more 'earthiness' about the Bennet household and the creation of the Netherfield Ball was brilliant, with camerawork taking us through the melee of people and children running around. It captured entirely the fact that this was a community gathering with all the chaos that would naturally ensue, having a room for the dancing but then taking us around the other rooms where all the human business unfolded. We tend to look back on periods like this and - rather like the Victorians with medievalism - re-invent it to match our desire for perfect, halcyon days, whereas this rather overlooks the realities of day-to-day life in a society of limited sanitation, etc., as well as the fact that people are the same in any period apart from a veneer of comtemporary codes. That's why I also loved the portrayal of the sisters. A house full of adolescent girls is not going to be refined and mannered at every juncture, so the energetic group of girls here, laughing, giggling, eavesdropping and jostling felt utterly natural to me and a refreshing change from the sanitising impulse.

I thought Keira Knightley was superb as Lizzie and was mightily relieved to see she can act after all, though I think all the talk of an Oscar is perhaps a little over-hyped. Matthew McFad grew on me more as the film progressed; I'm not of the right sex to give a fair assessment of how swoonworthy he is, but then, frankly, should he be? Aren't we supposed to find other aspects of him worthy of love, as Lizzie does? The fact that at first I worried because there did not seem to be much chemistry between them, but then ultimately came to see there was actually seems absolutely right for the story.

I also liked Donald Sutherland as Mr Bennet, though I know this hasn't been everyone's favourite casting. For me, he captured Mr B's laconic, mischievous wit and laissez-faire attitude superbly, and the scene where he agrees to Lizzie's marriage was extraordinarily touching and revealed the depths behind the man who has had to adopt a certain stance in a house full of women.

The portrayal of Collins was excellent in being understated. You simply saw a very boring man from which the comedy naturally grew in an unforced fashion. Lady Catherine was also first rate in Judi Dench's capable hands.

Of course, a lot had to go and many won't like it for that, but it has to be remembered that the objectives of a film have to be very different from those of a TV adaptation, which has many hours in which to be utterly faithful. I like very few film versions of classic literature, but the best for me capture the spirit of a book, and I feel this does that well. It is painted on a broader canvas than we are used to with Austen, taking it much more out of the 'drawing room' drama and into sweeping landscapes, but I don't see the harm in that, and let's remember that P & P is perhaps the most mobile of all the novels, taking us to many different places. Perhaps it's no bad thing to reflect that more.

Having said all that, I took my mother, who is an obsessive fan of the BBC Firthfest. She didn't like it much at all and wasn't convinced. Ah well. :rolleyes:

[Jassie]

Matthew McFad grew on me more as the film progressed; I'm not of the right sex to give a fair assessment of how swoonworthy he is, but then, frankly, should he be? Aren't we supposed to find other aspects of him worthy of love, as Lizzie does? The fact that at first I worried because there did not seem to be much chemistry between them, but then ultimately came to see there was actually seems absolutely right for the story....


I think you summed up how I felt about it pretty well David, wish that I could be so eloquent... I agree with your comments particularly on Darcy and the previous posts. Colin Firth is NOT Mr Darcy. I have to say that although CF does a good job he doesn't make me swoon. Then neither did McFadyen either, it is the qualities that we find out about him, along with Lizzy, that make him attractive not the relative idea of whether he is physically handsome or not. I thought Mcfadyen portrayed the role well, given the brievity of the script for character development, especially the scene with his sister, which is one of the points at which Lizzy starts to revaluate her opinion of him further; seeing him more relaxed and well, human.
It's all enjoyable nonsense... :)

[Cathy]

Hmm. I'm not convinced. But then Sue Birtwhistle, who I think produced the BBC version (hang on a sec, let me check on the video box :o - yes produced) said Austen is like Shakespeare, it can take the constant revisiting because its so good.

[Harriet]

I haven't seen the film adaptation yet, but I've heard they missed out the 'In vain I have struggled speech'. WHAT??!!! That's the BEST bit of the whole story. No 'my feelings will not be repressed'. Just 'I love you most ardently'. And I don't understand how Keira Knightley can play Elizabeth, seeing as Lizzie's supposed to be plain. I think she would have been better off as Jane - but, then I haven't seen the film so am most likely completely wrong here. Except from Mr Darcy's speech, it's criminal that's missed out.

[Cathy]

You know what else they missed out? 'It is a truth universally acknowledged that a man in possession of a fortune must be in want of a wife'! :eek: And the weddings were missed out altogether...though the version released in the US apparently has a full extra 8 minutes, so maybe they will get to see it.

KK works quite well as Lizzie, I actually liked her playing it. She is beautiful, but the girl playing Jane is also very beautiful in a very different, English Rose sort of way, so you can more easily see how she could be considered more beautiful.

[Elfstar]

Harriet, Lizzie ISN'T plain. Bingley describes her as very pretty. She is not however the beauty of her family although her father describes her as having some quickness about her that sets her apart from the others.

If she was plain then Darcy's comment that she was "tolerable" could be construed as a compliment. In fact it can only become a joke because the opposite is true.

The most striking things about lizzie are her intelligence and her beautiful eyes. Jane, her beauty and sweet nature.

She is one of the most compelling heroines on the page. I am interested to see KK in the part but I can see that her impishnesss, eyes and rather boyish figure might lend themselves rather well to Lizzie. Now how would you view her as Jo March? Another very interesting character.

[David]

You know what else they missed out? 'It is a truth universally acknowledged that a man in possession of a fortune must be in want of a wife'! :eek:
I'm not sure that's awfully fair, Cathy. It's a film and those words are part of the narrative. Voiceovers are usually very clunky in films and best left out; I can't see the point of including that line just because it's famous, or, even worse, sticking it in the mouth of a convenient character that never actually said it.

[mrs.dalloway]

I disagree it is lines like this which make the novel what it is, how dare they leave it out lol. Have to agree with David about the film and must also add that the soundtrack is flawless

[Cathy]

There was a definite sense of anticipation in the cinema when I saw it, a sort of female hormonal hysteria so much so that I wouldn't have been surprised if people had stood up and cheered and whooped if Darcy had said 'My feeling will not be repressed'! My main issue with this adaptation was the script though, its hard to remember which lines bugged me from one viewing but the general feel was that the script didn't do justice to the original.

[megustaleer]

the general feel was that the script didn't do justice to the original.

Ah, well, Jane wasn't around to do the scriptwriting, was she, so it was bound to be second best! :rolleyes:

[megustaleer]

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Isn't it often said that a lot of features jump a generation, so maybe Jane and Elizabeth came after their grandparents? I think the main reason they turn out different from the others is that there are so many children in such a short time that Mrs. Bennett does not have enough energy to devote to all of her girls. Lydia seems to be most like Mrs. Bennett and therefore gets most of the attention and encouragement. I have seen this in modern families but I think it was even worse 200 years ago, children were not there to be loved and to be given all the attention of the parents.
Would Darcy have wanted to marry Elizabeth even if Lydia had ended up not marrying Wickham and therefore being a "fallen" woman. Darcy doesn't marry on his level, his family is not pleased at all about his choice, he doesn't care and therefore I think he would have married her anyway.
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#77
4th March 2006, 12:06 PM

Cathy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starry
What's wrong with Mr Bennett? Apart from being fairly indolent and embarrasing them at the Netherfield party, he is intelligent, enjoys good and interesting company and is discerning. I think Lizzy in particular takes after her father.

I thought that the reason Darcy had tried to convince Lydia to leave Wickham was because he couldn't imagine her being happy with him (and he's right). When she insists I can see him shrugging and thinking on your own head be it


I used to like Mr Bennett too, but more and more I can see where he goes so wrong (I'm basing this on stuff Elizabeth sees wrong with him too):
1. He talks to and of his wife unrespectfully, even though she has major faults, he shouldn't ridicule her (Elizabeth thinks at some point that she can see how wrong this is and that it is a poor substitute for a good marriage).
2. Not saving money for his children to inherit.
3. Embarrassing Mary at the ball at Netherfield.
4. Not seeing soon enough the dangers of Lydia's behaviour.
5. Being generally inconsiderate e.g. not telling anyone of Mr Collins' arrival till the day itself!

I like very much to think Darcy would move mountains to marry Lizzy, and that the important thing isn't what would have happened if he hadn't sorted Lydia out, it is that of course he did because he is Darcy and he can do anything...I do find it slightly sinister though that the alternative given to Lydia (rather than marry Wickham) is to be properly hidden away somewhere - disappereared, pretty much. There wasn't really an alternative at that time so it isn't surprising.
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#78
5th March 2006, 10:06 AM

Amanda Grange
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy
I do find it slightly sinister though that the alternative given to Lydia (rather than marry Wickham) is to be properly hidden away somewhere - disappereared, pretty much. There wasn't really an alternative at that time so it isn't surprising.


I've never read it like this. When Mrs Gardiner tells Lizzy about Darcy's involvement in Lydia's marriage, she says: "His first object . . . had been to persuade her (Lydia) to quit her present disgraceful situation, and return to her friends as soon as they could be prevailed on to receive her . .. "

I've always taken this to mean that he tried to persuade her to return to the Forsters in Brighton, so that she could then go back to Longbourne at the end of her Brighton stay without anyone at home (apart from her family) being any the wiser about her escapade. If the Bennets had said nothing to their neighbours, then this would have worked as a way of saving Lydia's reputation.

As to whether Darcy would have married Lizzy anyway, the answer, imo, is yes!

#79
5th March 2006, 02:54 PM

Starry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy
I used to like Mr Bennett too, but more and more I can see where he goes so wrong (I'm basing this on stuff Elizabeth sees wrong with him too):
1. He talks to and of his wife unrespectfully, even though she has major faults, he shouldn't ridicule her (Elizabeth thinks at some point that she can see how wrong this is and that it is a poor substitute for a good marriage).
2. Not saving money for his children to inherit.
3. Embarrassing Mary at the ball at Netherfield.
4. Not seeing soon enough the dangers of Lydia's behaviour.
5. Being generally inconsiderate e.g. not telling anyone of Mr Collins' arrival till the day itself!


1) I would defy anyone to live with Mrs Bennett and not tease her Though I agree with Lizzy that it a poor substitute for a good marriage, but as far as I can see he does keep his teasing of her within the family.
2) Ah, but he was to have had a son! Poor Mr Bennett doesn't have the gift of foresight (as proven by his marriage to Mrs Bennett)
3) Definitely a character flaw
4) Another character flaw, covered in my book by his indolence. I think he was really thinking of all the peaceful hours he could have in his library and at the dinner table while Lydia was away.
5) I'm inclined to think that this is more to do with being a man in that century that being generally inconsiderate. He must have confidence in Mrs Bennett's housekeeping skills to spring an extra visitor on her at such short notice

Overall I'm inclined to think that Mr Bennett knows how to be well-behaved and well-bred and taught his eldest girls accordingly, but chooses not to at home (and sometimes abroad).

#80
6th March 2006, 08:07 PM
Kate Redux
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I think from Jane Austen's point of view, Mr Bennett is just too laid back. Disappointed in love - Mrs Bennett bores the pants of him by this stage, not literally of course, but after spending one-and-twenty years inseminating her with daughters, and listening to her mindless if understandable chatter he’s had enough by the time the event in the novel take place- he’s become a cynical but passive observer. He is still a lovable character of course. Following Lizzie and Fitzwilliam's marriage he finds space and good company at Pemberly.

Like many literary characters, Mr Bennett is a combination of faults and graces and Lizzie loves him dearly.

Kate

#81
6th March 2006, 08:17 PM

megustaleer
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Welcome to BGO Kate, it's good to have your input.

#82
6th March 2006, 11:24 PM

Amanda Grange
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Quote:
Mr Bennett is just too laid back . . . and listening to her mindless if understandable chatter he’s had enough by the time the event in the novel take place- he’s become a cynical but passive observer.


One of the things I liked about the new film was that it showed me Mr Bennet in a new light, as a man outnumbered by the six females in his family. I'd never thought about it before, but he had no one to discuss masculine things with, and I'm not surprised he was bored by constant talk of gowns, balls and marriage.

#83
9th March 2006, 04:56 PM
LizzyBennet
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I couldn't bear to watch the new adaptation - I watched a section with the 'You must allow me to tell you' speech from Darcy and the actor was so cold it made me wince with horror. Where was the passion? The fervour? The excitement and disappointment? He may as well have been told that he wasn't getting a cowboy cake for his birthday! Not my idea of Darcy at all.

I feel really sorry for Mr Bennet all the way through the book though - he's a bad father in lots of ways (insulting them all the time being my personal favourite) but he really does try to do his best in other ways. He gives respect to the women in his family who have earned it (Lizzy and Jane) but teases the others to alleviate his own frustration at living with a pack of twittering idiots. I think lots of fathers would be just as scathing if they had to live with Lydia, Kitty and Mary!

I once read that Austen wrote a letter to a friend explaining that Kitty married a tradesman and Mary a clergyman years after Jane and Lizzy got married. Has anybody else heard that or have I gone doolally after too many years re-reading the same book?
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#84
9th March 2006, 05:38 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzyBennet
I feel really sorry for Mr Bennet all the way through the book though - he's a bad father in lots of ways (insulting them all the time being my personal favourite) but he really does try to do his best in other ways. He gives respect to the women in his family who have earned it (Lizzy and Jane) but teases the others to alleviate his own frustration at living with a pack of twittering idiots. I think lots of fathers would be just as scathing if they had to live with Lydia, Kitty and Mary!

So true!

[megustaleer]

#84
9th March 2006, 05:38 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzyBennet
I feel really sorry for Mr Bennet all the way through the book though - he's a bad father in lots of ways (insulting them all the time being my personal favourite) but he really does try to do his best in other ways. He gives respect to the women in his family who have earned it (Lizzy and Jane) but teases the others to alleviate his own frustration at living with a pack of twittering idiots. I think lots of fathers would be just as scathing if they had to live with Lydia, Kitty and Mary!

So true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzyBennet
I once read that Austen wrote a letter to a friend explaining that Kitty married a tradesman and Mary a clergyman years after Jane and Lizzy got married. Has anybody else heard that or have I gone doolally after too many years re-reading the same book?

No, you're right. I read that, as well. I don't remember where but will try to find it. I remember that Mary married a lawyer (like her aunt) and Kitty a clergyman. I am sure about Kitty because I was surprised, I would have imagined Mary, as well.
Once I found it, I'll get back to this.
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#85
9th March 2006, 07:46 PM

Amanda Grange
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It's in A Memoir of Jane Austen by her nephew.

http://labrocca.com/ja/mja-ch10.html

#86
9th March 2006, 09:52 PM

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Thanks, Amanda, this one is good but I've seen a larger one that also includes something about Mr. and Mrs. Bennett. Still not found, though.*
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Isn't it often said that a lot of features jump a generation, so maybe Jane and Elizabeth came after their grandparents? I think the main reason they turn out different from the others is that there are so many children in such a short time that Mrs. Bennett does not have enough energy to devote to all of her girls. Lydia seems to be most like Mrs. Bennett and therefore gets most of the attention and encouragement. I have seen this in modern families but I think it was even worse 200 years ago, children were not there to be loved and to be given all the attention of the parents.
Would Darcy have wanted to marry Elizabeth even if Lydia had ended up not marrying Wickham and therefore being a "fallen" woman. Darcy doesn't marry on his level, his family is not pleased at all about his choice, he doesn't care and therefore I think he would have married her anyway.
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* #77 *
4th March 2006, 12:06 PM

Cathy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starry
What's wrong with Mr Bennett? Apart from being fairly indolent and embarrasing them at the Netherfield party, he is intelligent, enjoys good and interesting company and is discerning. I think Lizzy in particular takes after her father.

I thought that the reason Darcy had tried to convince Lydia to leave Wickham was because he couldn't imagine her being happy with him (and he's right). When she insists I can see him shrugging and thinking on your own head be it


I used to like Mr Bennett too, but more and more I can see where he goes so wrong (I'm basing this on stuff Elizabeth sees wrong with him too):
1. He talks to and of his wife unrespectfully, even though she has major faults, he shouldn't ridicule her (Elizabeth thinks at some point that she can see how wrong this is and that it is a poor substitute for a good marriage).
2. Not saving money for his children to inherit.
3. Embarrassing Mary at the ball at Netherfield.
4. Not seeing soon enough the dangers of Lydia's behaviour.
5. Being generally inconsiderate e.g. not telling anyone of Mr Collins' arrival till the day itself!

I like very much to think Darcy would move mountains to marry Lizzy, and that the important thing isn't what would have happened if he hadn't sorted Lydia out, it is that of course he did because he is Darcy and he can do anything...I do find it slightly sinister though that the alternative given to Lydia (rather than marry Wickham) is to be properly hidden away somewhere - disappereared, pretty much. There wasn't really an alternative at that time so it isn't surprising.
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* #78 *
5th March 2006, 10:06 AM

Amanda Grange
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy
I do find it slightly sinister though that the alternative given to Lydia (rather than marry Wickham) is to be properly hidden away somewhere - disappereared, pretty much. There wasn't really an alternative at that time so it isn't surprising.


I've never read it like this. When Mrs Gardiner tells Lizzy about Darcy's involvement in Lydia's marriage, she says: "His first object . . . had been to persuade her (Lydia) to quit her present disgraceful situation, and return to her friends as soon as they could be prevailed on to receive her . .. "

I've always taken this to mean that he tried to persuade her to return to the Forsters in Brighton, so that she could then go back to Longbourne at the end of her Brighton stay without anyone at home (apart from her family) being any the wiser about her escapade. If the Bennets had said nothing to their neighbours, then this would have worked as a way of saving Lydia's reputation.

As to whether Darcy would have married Lizzy anyway, the answer, imo, is yes!

* #79 *
5th March 2006, 02:54 PM

Starry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy
I used to like Mr Bennett too, but more and more I can see where he goes so wrong (I'm basing this on stuff Elizabeth sees wrong with him too):
1. He talks to and of his wife unrespectfully, even though she has major faults, he shouldn't ridicule her (Elizabeth thinks at some point that she can see how wrong this is and that it is a poor substitute for a good marriage).
2. Not saving money for his children to inherit.
3. Embarrassing Mary at the ball at Netherfield.
4. Not seeing soon enough the dangers of Lydia's behaviour.
5. Being generally inconsiderate e.g. not telling anyone of Mr Collins' arrival till the day itself!


1) I would defy anyone to live with Mrs Bennett and not tease her Though I agree with Lizzy that it a poor substitute for a good marriage, but as far as I can see he does keep his teasing of her within the family.
2) Ah, but he was to have had a son! Poor Mr Bennett doesn't have the gift of foresight (as proven by his marriage to Mrs Bennett)
3) Definitely a character flaw
4) Another character flaw, covered in my book by his indolence. I think he was really thinking of all the peaceful hours he could have in his library and at the dinner table while Lydia was away.
5) I'm inclined to think that this is more to do with being a man in that century that being generally inconsiderate. He must have confidence in Mrs Bennett's housekeeping skills to spring an extra visitor on her at such short notice

Overall I'm inclined to think that Mr Bennett knows how to be well-behaved and well-bred and taught his eldest girls accordingly, but chooses not to at home (and sometimes abroad).

[megustaleer]

* #80 *
6th March 2006, 08:07 PM
Kate Redux
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I think from Jane Austen's point of view, Mr Bennett is just too laid back. Disappointed in love - Mrs Bennett bores the pants of him by this stage, not literally of course, but after spending one-and-twenty years inseminating her with daughters, and listening to her mindless if understandable chatter he’s had enough by the time the event in the novel take place- he’s become a cynical but passive observer. He is still a lovable character of course. Following Lizzie and Fitzwilliam's marriage he finds space and good company at Pemberly.

Like many literary characters, Mr Bennett is a combination of faults and graces and Lizzie loves him dearly.

Kate

* #81 *
6th March 2006, 08:17 PM

megustaleer
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Welcome to BGO Kate, it's good to have your input.

* #82 *
6th March 2006, 11:24 PM

Amanda Grange
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Quote:
Mr Bennett is just too laid back . . . and listening to her mindless if understandable chatter he’s had enough by the time the event in the novel take place- he’s become a cynical but passive observer.


One of the things I liked about the new film was that it showed me Mr Bennet in a new light, as a man outnumbered by the six females in his family. I'd never thought about it before, but he had no one to discuss masculine things with, and I'm not surprised he was bored by constant talk of gowns, balls and marriage.

* #83 *
9th March 2006, 04:56 PM
LizzyBennet
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I couldn't bear to watch the new adaptation - I watched a section with the 'You must allow me to tell you' speech from Darcy and the actor was so cold it made me wince with horror. Where was the passion? The fervour? The excitement and disappointment? He may as well have been told that he wasn't getting a cowboy cake for his birthday! Not my idea of Darcy at all.

I feel really sorry for Mr Bennet all the way through the book though - he's a bad father in lots of ways (insulting them all the time being my personal favourite) but he really does try to do his best in other ways. He gives respect to the women in his family who have earned it (Lizzy and Jane) but teases the others to alleviate his own frustration at living with a pack of twittering idiots. I think lots of fathers would be just as scathing if they had to live with Lydia, Kitty and Mary!

I once read that Austen wrote a letter to a friend explaining that Kitty married a tradesman and Mary a clergyman years after Jane and Lizzy got married. Has anybody else heard that or have I gone doolally after too many years re-reading the same book?
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* #84 *
9th March 2006, 05:38 PM

Momo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzyBennet
I feel really sorry for Mr Bennet all the way through the book though - he's a bad father in lots of ways (insulting them all the time being my personal favourite) but he really does try to do his best in other ways. He gives respect to the women in his family who have earned it (Lizzy and Jane) but teases the others to alleviate his own frustration at living with a pack of twittering idiots. I think lots of fathers would be just as scathing if they had to live with Lydia, Kitty and Mary!

So true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzyBennet
I once read that Austen wrote a letter to a friend explaining that Kitty married a tradesman and Mary a clergyman years after Jane and Lizzy got married. Has anybody else heard that or have I gone doolally after too many years re-reading the same book?

No, you're right. I read that, as well. I don't remember where but will try to find it. I remember that Mary married a lawyer (like her aunt) and Kitty a clergyman. I am sure about Kitty because I was surprised, I would have imagined Mary, as well.
Once I found it, I'll get back to this.
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* #85 *
9th March 2006, 07:46 PM

Amanda Grange
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It's in A Memoir of Jane Austen by her nephew.

http://labrocca.com/ja/mja-ch10.html

* #86 *
9th March 2006, 09:52 PM

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Thanks, Amanda, this one is good but I've seen a larger one that also includes something about Mr. and Mrs. Bennett. Still not found, though.

* #87 *
10th March 2006, 12:41 PM

Cathy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzyBennet
I couldn't bear to watch the new adaptation - I watched a section with the 'You must allow me to tell you' speech from Darcy and the actor was so cold it made me wince with horror. Where was the passion? The fervour? The excitement and disappointment? He may as well have been told that he wasn't getting a cowboy cake for his birthday! Not my idea of Darcy at all.

I feel really sorry for Mr Bennet all the way through the book though - he's a bad father in lots of ways (insulting them all the time being my personal favourite) but he really does try to do his best in other ways. He gives respect to the women in his family who have earned it (Lizzy and Jane) but teases the others to alleviate his own frustration at living with a pack of twittering idiots. I think lots of fathers would be just as scathing if they had to live with Lydia, Kitty and Mary!

I once read that Austen wrote a letter to a friend explaining that Kitty married a tradesman and Mary a clergyman years after Jane and Lizzy got married. Has anybody else heard that or have I gone doolally after too many years re-reading the same book?


I'm so glad I've found a fan who agrees with me - it was dreadful!!!!
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* #88 *
10th March 2006, 12:52 PM
Kate Redux
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Re: latest film version,
I have to disagree, I thought there was a lot of energy in this production and the screen writer did a great job condensing the novel. I did, however, have the misfortune to see the alternative American ending on the UK DVD...pass the sick bag.

Kate

* #89 *
10th March 2006, 01:30 PM
LizzyBennet
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They REWROTE the ending?! Surely that's heresy and is punishable with a swift kick up the bum? I think my slightly coloured view of the new adaptation was based on the fact that I thought right from the start that the main parts were miscast and therefore didn't/couldn't/wouldn't give it a chance. I'm still in love with the Darcy in my head from the novel (with clear elements of Colin Firth). And the Darcy in the novel (for me) wasn't the one in the new adaptation. Mind you, I think a lot of the Hollywood versions have been average or appalling. The one I really like (despite its major changes to the novel) is Sense and Sensibility with Emma Thompson. That really worked for me (if you overlook the age of Em as Elinor).
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* #90 *
12th March 2006, 12:00 PM

Amanda Grange
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The American ending showed Darcy and Lizzy in a state of deshabille in front of Pemberley - this was what I really objected to, as it looked like bluescreen to me, though I can't be sure, but something about the size of them in the foreground and the size of Pemberley in the background didn't look right - and I wasn't keen on Darcy's shirt, as it looked like muslin and too much like a nightgown, but anyway, the scene has the two of them kneeling on a rug outside at night.

Darcy asks what he's to call her, and she says something like wonderful pearl, and he says, how about Mrs Darcy, and she says, you can only use that on occasions when you're deliriously happy, so he says Mrs Darcy and kisses her, then Mrs Darcy and kisses her again . . . then says Mrs Darcy and kisses her again . . .

. . . which either makes people go Aaaa, or, as Kate says, Pass the sick bag.

[megustaleer]

Sorry, I can only retreive up to page 5. If anyone can find the next 4 pages, do add them!
I will tidy up the thread at a later date

[Momo]

Slowrain has raised this question here (http://www.bookgrouponline.com/forum/showthread.html?t=556&page=3&pp=15)Actually, you may be able to help me with that book.

My main problem wasn't so much Austen's narrative, it was her structure. I admit I didn't get too far into it, but I felt she glossed over two very important scenes: the first meeting between Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth, and I can't recall the other one just now. I usually have difficulty when the author stacks the deck like that: a tactic often used by low-grade mystery writers, and then readers exclaim that they never saw the end coming, not realizing it was because the author denied them access to the information rather than any particular brilliance on the part of the writer.

I usually don't mind unreliable narrative, but I don't think that's what Austen was going for in this book–maybe I'm wrong there. I wanted to see their first meeting at the party to decide for myself how Mr. Darcy acted; I wanted to see how Austen presented it. I felt cheated when she denied the reader that crucial moment and then expected us to take Elizabeth's account at face value. From that point on, everything, and I mean everything that Elizabeth says becomes suspect, even the ending, for how can we ever trust her again (I also had the same problem with the movie The Usual Suspects). It may be Austen's way of discussing gossip and second hand information, I don't know, but it felt cheap.

I really like the 2005 movie starring Keira Knightley, so I know there's a very good story in there (the movie showed their first meeting). I just need a little literary motivation to try the novel again. I need to know there was a reason, other than a cheap trick, why Austen denied the reader that first meeting.I thought it was better to discuss it in the Pride & Prejudice forum and therefore have posted it here.

My initial answer would be that Jane Austen tried to show us the story from Elizabeth's perspective, the way she felt. A lot of the story is told in letters or "second hand". They wouldn't be able to do this as much in the movie, therefore they had to show the scene. However, Jane Austen does describe the event, through Elizabeth's words.

I guess there is no real way to make someone like a book they didn't the first time. Sometimes I have come to appreciate a book after having discussed it with my book club, other friends, or here on-line. But if I didn't love it while I read it the first time, I usually didn't start loving it after that.

I'll have to think about a better answer but I am sure there will be others here who will contribute to this, as well.

[SlowRain]

Actually, that helps. I'm more willing to give it another try now.

[Momo]

Well, you don't have to. I mean, everyone has different tastes and you might not enjoy it after all. But since you asked ...

[DVD-Book-Library]

Same thing here - Pride & Prejudice is one of "those" books which you have to read without distractions. The BBC version is very good and accurately portrays Austens' style.

[Webby]

I feel a lynch mob assembling every time I say this, but I really didn't get on with Pride and Prejudice.

I did at least find Mr Darcy a refreshingly honest love interest, but other than that I found myself having to work very hard to get anywhere. Some of the dialogue just seemed a bit inane and unnecessary.

Not one of my favourites.

[shirleygardner]

I picked up Pride and Prejudice last year on a whim thinking i should read the classics at some point and I had never seen the tv adaptations before. I really enjoyed reading it, I liked Austen's observations on life and the family dynamics, you can see them in everyday life even now (granted not the must find rich husband for daughter soon after 16th birthday!), but they are there.

It spurred me on to read persuasion, which in my opinion i probably enjoyed more, its shorter so if you get bored easily, its good to go for.

Warning if your the kind of person who gets engrossed in books, you may find yourself using Jane Austen language afterwards! However when i feel the need to show my boyfriend i'm more cultured than in reality a quick half hour with P&P to spruce up my vocab, works wonders.

[David]

Welcome to BGO, Shirley! Perhaps you'd like to tell us a little more about yourself and your reading tastes in the Please Introduce Yourself thread? (http://www.bookgrouponline.com/forum/showthread.html?t=727)

[megustaleer]

Welcome to BGO, shirleygardener, you will find many other Austen fans here!

Do come and say 'hello', and tell us more about your taste in books, on the Please Introduce Yourself (http://www.bookgrouponline.com/forum/showthread.html?t=727) thread in Central Library, where we can welcome you properly, and can answer any questions you might have about this site.

[David]

Not that there's any pressure or anything.....

;)

[Momo]

I feel a lynch mob assembling every time I say this, but I really didn't get on with Pride and Prejudice.We won't lynch you here, just feel sorry for you. ;)

[Huntress]

I love pride and predjuice and was supposed to study it for a level but they've changed the book to wuthering heights :( i love darcy